SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[rkss]

Sephiroth's "you have 7 second left" reminds me of this:

Spoiler

- "Just two more seconds. What will you do, Cloud?"
- "One more second..."
- "Zero"

-"METEO DA -DA DA DA DA DA DA"

Apologize for the bad joke

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But we do know the rule, at least the causality-consequence rule for it. Every character within the story's framework is operating under the belief that by changing X in the past, you get Y in the future. A direct cause-effect relationship. No mention or reference to alternate/branching timelines are mentioned, let alone believed.

They don't discuss time travel theory at all. They just believe the world is heading for disaster and want to stop it. They probably couldn't give a shit whether doing so overwrites an existing timeline or just ensures theirs doesn't go down that same path to devastation.

They're also operating on limited knowledge and fallacious assumptions (e.g. Red mistakenly thinking the previously established happy ending is "A glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today").

Because if they did think that, their actions would make no sense within the Remake; why protect your future in the past, if whatever change happens merely creates a new timeline?

Are you seriously asking "Why don't the heroes of the story want to let their world be destroyed"? =|

Why would Sephiroth believe he could bring about Meteor and the end by altering the past when it would merely create a new timeline he wasn't apart of?

He most likely would be part of it. If he changes the course of history in the present, why wouldn't the results apply to the timeline he's occupying??

Yes, that was when confronted with death. But he wasn't confronted with death here. He was thwarted. And he still has another plan to fallback on. The one that involves summoning Meteor the good ole' fashioned way.

...

Final victory were the stakes here. If Sephiroth had his way, doomsday would have been "today" for them.

We saw those sequences very differently. I watched Sephiroth lure Avalanche into defeating an opponent whose power he immediately absorbed, then dick around with them until he got bored and left.

And yeah, this is what Nomura wanted. However, I think he's more wanting us to wonder what changes or new things can happen now that we see that the story of FFVII is free to go in directions we may not necessarily predict. However, going by their respect and desire to utilize their previous work, and lack of any mention of a branching off timeline, they're not going to essentially nullify what goes forward in FFVII and beyond.

Nomura has already been explicit that we should look at the original and the remake as separate stories with neither overwriting the other. So we already knew going into this that they were separate timelines; we didn't know that this fact was going to be an actual plot point, with Seph acting on knowledge of the original future we were already familiar with.

And dude, why would a "lack of any mention of a branching off timeline" from the devs be problematic here? Have I fallen into an alternate universe where we are accustomed to Nomura spoiling the twists and endings of his games before release? =P

 

[Makoeyes987]

They don't discuss time travel theory at all. They just believe the world is heading for disaster and want to stop it. They probably couldn't give a shit whether doing so overwrites an existing timeline or just ensures theirs doesn't go down that same path to devastation.

They're also operating on limited knowledge and fallacious assumptions (e.g. Red mistakenly thinking the previously established happy ending is "A glimpse of tomorrow if we fail here today").

I'm not talking about the heroes, I'm talking about Sephiroth and the Arbiters of Fate.

They would be privy and aware of the consequences, given their knowledge and awareness of time travel in the place. Given the fact the Arbiters of Fate are from the future to protect the destiny that shaped them, they must know that it can be changed by direct causality.

He most likely would be part of it. If he changes the course of history in the present, why wouldn't the results apply to the timeline he's occupying??

Then we know the operative rule in reference to changes to the past. There wouldn't be an alternate timeline, it would simply manifest in the present.

We saw those sequences very differently. I watched Sephiroth lure Avalanche into defeating an opponent whose power he immediately absorbed, then dick around with them until he got bored and left.

Okay, even if that was all that occured, the potential groundwork for time disruption was laid out nonetheless. If something like Zack being allowed to live happened, that effect would directly play out. It wouldn't manifest as a mere alternate timeline or AU.

Nomura has already been explicit that we should look at the original and the remake as separate stories with neither overwriting the other. So we already knew going into this that they were separate timelines; we didn't know that this fact was going to be an actual plot point, with Seph acting on knowledge of the original future we were already familiar with.

I don't think Nomura was speaking in reference to timelines here. Just that each adaptive work of FFVII isn't meant to overwrite the other.

And dude, why would a "lack of any mention of a branching off timeline" from the devs be problematic here? Have I fallen into an alternate universe where we are accustomed to Nomura spoiling the twists and endings of his games before release? =P

I wasn't speaking in reference of the devs, I meant the story. We're only given reference to the timeline as is, through attempts to change it or protect it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not talking about the heroes, I'm talking about Sephiroth and the Arbiters of Fate.

They would be privy and aware of the consequences, given their knowledge and awareness of time travel in the place. Given the fact the Arbiters of Fate are from the future to protect the destiny that shaped them, they must know that it can be changed by direct causality.

Or they simply exist to prevent subversion of the natural order. Sephiroth's defiance of returning to the Lifestream, lingering as an angry ghost who killed people with a virus, was "allowed" within the possibilities offered by the metaphysics of the setting -- but it was pointedly a perversion and unnatural. Trying to use knowledge of the future to circumvent it, while "allowable" (i.e. possible), could be the same sort of thing.

Okay, even if that was all that occured, the potential groundwork for time disruption was laid out nonetheless. If something like Zack being allowed to live happened, that effect would directly play out. It wouldn't manifest as a mere alternate timeline or AU.

I think you're misreading me here. This (i.e. the story depicted thus far in FFVII Remake) is the alternate timeline (the original game being the point of reference for what counts as "alternate" in this context), and has been an alternate timeline from the moment Sephiroth gained knowledge of the old future.

I am saying that were Zack now alive in this parallel universe, yes, that would apply to the universe observed thus far in FFVIIR, not an additional branch off of FFVIIR's timeline.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Or they simply exist to prevent subversion of the natural order. Sephiroth's defiance of returning to the Lifestream, lingering as an angry ghost who killed people with a virus, was "allowed" within the possibilities offered by the metaphysics of the setting -- but it was pointedly a perversion and unnatural. Trying to use knowledge of the future to circumvent it, while "allowable" (i.e. possible), could be the same sort of thing.

But that subversion is given the implication that what ever temporal distortion threatens to overwrite or destroy the "destiny" that created them. It's as if their actions are self-protective. They have to believe or operate under the assumption that time is re-writeable and able to effect change on the present. Those are the presumed stakes.

I think you're misreading me here. This (i.e. the story depicted thus far in FFVII Remake) is the alternate timeline (the original game being the point of reference for what counts as "alternate" in this context), and has been an alternate timeline from the moment Sephiroth gained knowledge of the old future.

An alternate timeline that shares an Advent Children, Crisis Core, etc? I mean, okay, I suppose. But at the same time, no one's really calling it that. And equating it to an alternate timeline creates an inconsistency in the nature of cause-and-effect.

Sephiroth, presumably gained knowledge of some sort to effect change. That change is manifested in the present. Arbiters of Destiny arrive from the future in order to correct these distortions and protect the future that gave birth to them.

If Sephiroth's acquisition of knowledge created an alternate timeline, why is nothing else he's doing creating alternate timelines? Why would the Arbiters be at risk and required to protect the future that created them?

There's an inconsistency there. Unless this is to be assumed an entirely new adaptive universe that shares everything in common with the previous, save for the core work, FFVII.

I am saying that were Zack now alive in this parallel universe, yes, that would apply to the universe observed thus far in FFVIIR, not an additional branch off of FFVIIR's timeline.

Then that would mean Cloud wouldn't be Cloud anymore. He would no longer carry that Buster Sword, call himself a SOLDIER, be in pursuit of Sephiroth... That would all be gone.

Aerith would be with Zack and happy. She would not be left ignorant of his fate.

Is that what we saw happen here? No, they're still in pursuit of Sephiroth. They remember what he did. They still intend to stop him since he is a threat.

 

[Arianna]

(I suspect it may have healing properties because when one of these gold "snowflakes" lands on Biggs, he awakens.)

So, Biggs is alive?

This is nuts and SO uneeded.

Agreed.

Still excited for the game, though.

I want to form my own opinions/theories.

EDIT: But, if this becomes as convoluted as Kingdom Hearts (Did they ever find that place, or is it not a place?), I will be non plussed.

 

[Theozilla]

So, Biggs is alive?

By all appearances, yes he appears to be alive. But he is bedridden and heavily wounded (specifically in a Sector 5 orphanage/school he apparently has history with).

 

[Arianna]

By all appearances, yes he appears to be alive. But he is bedridden and heavily wounded (specifically in a Sector 5 orphanage/school he apparently has history with).

Wedge and Jesse, too, then, I'd guess?

 

[Theozilla]

Wedge and Jesse, too, then, I'd guess?

No, Jessie is dead dead by all available information. Wedge initially survived the plate fall but was also badly wounded (the party discovers Wedge, I'm not even sure if the party are aware Bigg is alive though, guess someone else found him?) but then Wedge is apparently "taken" by the Whispers, so his status by the end of the game is apparently a big ?unknown.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But that subversion is given the implication that what ever temporal distortion threatens to overwrite or destroy the "destiny" that created them. It's as if their actions are self-protective. They have to believe or operate under the assumption that time is re-writeable and able to effect change on the present. Those are the presumed stakes.

Only because you're choosing to presume those stakes, though. It isn't unreasonable, but then neither are other understandings.

It seems like we're in agreement that the Guardians of Destiny are just the universe's Weapons for the timestream. We've seen, though, more than once with the various Weapons on that world that they're meant to behave in certain ways if certain scenarios arise, regardless of how logical it is or isn't. They can even be hijacked or effectively tricked into working counter to their intended purposes.

You're more than welcome to read whatever you want into them just carrying out their programming, but I have to insist that you not insist on shutting down others' equally plausible theories about all this. =P

An alternate timeline that shares an Advent Children, Crisis Core, etc? I mean, okay, I suppose.

Shouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine given Dissidia's depiction of an alternate, ruined Cornelia (World A and World B), or the Fabula Nova Crystallis multiverse with its common mythology that went in wildly different directions in different universes -- e.g. Etro's blood gave rise to humans on both Gran Pulse and Orience, but not both worlds within the same universe.

(Notably, Dissidia's gods also had access to the various FNC universes, further emphasizing the presence of parallel realities in a shared multiverse in the wider FF mythos.)

But at the same time, no one's really calling it that.

Yes, but no one but Sephiroth knows he's trying to change a history that had already happened.

And equating it to an alternate timeline creates an inconsistency in the nature of cause-and-effect.

Sephiroth, presumably gained knowledge of some sort to effect change. That change is manifested in the present. Arbiters of Destiny arrive from the future in order to correct these distortions and protect the future that gave birth to them.

If Sephiroth's acquisition of knowledge created an alternate timeline, why is nothing else he's doing creating alternate timelines?

How do you know it isn't?

For that matter, the uphill battle to climb here is yours. You're trying to apply the time-is-rewritable rule to what was established from the outset to be a field of parallel timelines.

I'm choosing to take Nomura at his word that FFVIIR isn't meant to overwrite the original story. If that's true, anything Sephiroth does with his knowledge of the original timeline does not affect it. He can only shape this new timeline into one where he prevails.

Why would the Arbiters be at risk and required to protect the future that created them?

If they're Weapons, they're just doing what Weapons do: responding like antibodies to a specific stimulus.

Then that would mean Cloud wouldn't be Cloud anymore. He would no longer carry that Buster Sword, call himself a SOLDIER, be in pursuit of Sephiroth... That would all be gone.

Only because you're again assuming certain rules that we shouldn't be assuming. For all we know, some form of Time Traveler's Immunity applies here, so being inside the singularity protected Cloud and co. from any changes (has been done in science fiction).

Or because the Whispers' dome apparently existed simultaneously across Zack's present relative to him and Avalanche's present relative to them, there were no changes incurred in the "real present," creating a paradoxical fusion of histories (also has been done in sci-fi).

See, any psuedo-scientific excuse full of mumbo jumbo can be used to excuse whatever plot the writers want. I grew up on Marvel and DC comics as my bread and butter; this shit doesn't phase me at all.

But my main intended takeaway here is to knock it off with the "against all evidence" comments, loaded (and ironic) uses of "assume," and the laying-on of ellipses.

This ending was obviously intended to make the suggestion of various possible plot directions going forward. No one is being illogical for following one trail of these deliberate breadcrumbs as opposed to another.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Unless this is to be assumed an entirely new adaptive universe that shares everything in common with the previous, save for the core work, FFVII.

This is what I innitially assumed to be the case going into the Remake. It certainly sounds like what the devs were suggesting in interviews about the Remake trying to incorporate the events of the Compilation into the OG.

 

[Darudius]

So is the remake set in an alternate timeline or is that purely speculation at this point?

 

[oty]

I mean, it's weird. Even without the Whispers, would this game be considered an alternate timeline? There are characters here that dont appear in the original, conversations go differently, some differences.

But yeah if you are talking about the Whispers part, we have no idea.

 

[Darudius]

I mean, it's weird. Even without the Whispers, would this game be considered an alternate timeline? There are characters here that dont appear in the original, conversations go differently, some differences.

But yeah if you are talking about the Whispers part, we have no idea.

If they weren't there, I wouldn't no. But they are and the fact that the team saw glimpses of AC, which wouldnt have happened yet and some of the OG game(?) makes me lean on the side that it is an alternate timeline or time travel or something. I haven't seen all the spoilers but doesn't sephiroth essentially say hes from the future or something? So alternate timeline malarkey seems to be the only thing that makes sense in this regard. I could be wrong though.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Sephiroth does not say he is from the future. The datalouge does say the Whispers/Arbitrators of Fate are from a Future and that they are trying to bring that Future about. Sephrioth seems to be working with the Whispers more often then he seems to be working against them.

 

[pollenainne]

So is the remake set in an alternate timeline or is that purely speculation at this point?

At this point everything is speculation. No one is wrong or right until proven by part 2.

I mean, it's weird. Even without the Whispers, would this game be considered an alternate timeline? There are characters here that dont appear in the original, conversations go differently, some differences.

But yeah if you are talking about the Whispers part, we have no idea.

There are characters that do not appear in the original because it is a remake. Conversations are different because it is a remake. This is all well in the bounds of being a remake.

AUs and time travel which includes the OG makes it a sequel or a part of a compilation.

Right now it is a remake until the devs come out and say "Surprise we screwed you people!"

 

[BahamutSIN]

This is an interesting clip of Cloud and
Sephiroth talking in an astral place: 'Edge of Creation'. Having watched it, my theory is as follows:

'Our planet will become a part of it someday.'
'Let us defy destiny...together'

In Remake, Sephiroth will defy destiny and achieve his goal, at least partially. Which means it's likely that this time the planet will be obliterated by Meteor. Now, considering what Sephiroth said in Advent Children:

'What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did long ago. Then one day we'll find a new planet. And on its soil, we'll create a shining future.'

After the collision, the remaining lifestream energy is to be transferred to 'the Edge of Creation'. There, Sephiroth wants to recreate the world to his liking.

'But I will not end, nor will I have you end'
'Cloud, lend me your strength'

Sephiroth will survive the meteor fall impact, and promises Cloud to shield him from it too, in exchange for his loyalty. The rest is a mystery. But It's unlikely that Sephiroth will completely 'win' and the damage caused by meteor should be reversed with some new powers that control time/space.

 

[Arianna]

I always thought the remake was to replace the original game, expand upon it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I always thought the remake was to replace the original game, expand upon it.

Nomura said just the opposite recently:

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-overwrite-original/

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202003/02193727.html

『FFVII リメイク』が出てもオリジナルの『FFVII』が上書きされるわけではありません。オリジナルがあくまで原点であり、今回はオリジナルあってこその新しい『FFVII』であると捉えていただければと思います。

"The release of 'FFVII Remake' does not overwrite the original 'FFVII.' The original is the origin, and I hope you'll now think of this new 'FFVII' as separate from the original."

 

[Theozilla]

I don’t think Sephiroth needs to reverse the damage cause by Meteor impacting though. In the OG Meteor was implied to be big to cause mass extinction (like the dinosaur meteor) and cause a wound big enough for the Lifestream to converge in one spot, but he never intended it to be so big/damaging, the planet as a celestial body would be destroyed. Since he wants to absorb/control The Lifestream not obliterate it.

 

[Darudius]

Nomura said just the opposite recently:

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-overwrite-original/

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202003/02193727.html

『FFVII リメイク』が出てもオリジナルの『FFVII』が上書きされるわけではありません。オリジナルがあくまで原点であり、今回はオリジナルあってこその新しい『FFVII』であると捉えていただければと思います。

"The release of 'FFVII Remake' does not overwrite the original 'FFVII.' The original is the origin, and I hope you'll now think of this new 'FFVII' as separate from the original."

Surely if the group is going to change the events of original as they think it's a bad end, like a lot of people are speculating, then it will overwrite the original? Unless the remake is in an alternate timeline, which of course we wont find out for a few years. Damn it.

 

[BahamutSIN]

I don’t think Sephiroth needs to reverse the damage cause by Meteor impacting though. In the OG Meteor was implied to be big to cause mass extinction (like the dinosaur meteor) and cause a wound big enough for the Lifestream to converge in one spot, but he never intended it to be so big/damaging, the planet as a celestial body would be destroyed. Since he wants to absorb/control The Lifestream not obliterate it.

Hmm good point. So what could happen is that lifestream gets taken away, and planet is left as just a barren wasteland. Perhaps.

But it would make sense for Sephiroth to at least partially 'win' this time, since if he doesn't, then the whole time travelling would be a pointless addition to the story imo.

 

[Arianna]

Nomura said just the opposite recently:

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-overwrite-original/

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202003/02193727.html

『FFVII リメイク』が出てもオリジナルの『FFVII』が上書きされるわけではありません。オリジナルがあくまで原点であり、今回はオリジナルあってこその新しい『FFVII』であると捉えていただければと思います。

"The release of 'FFVII Remake' does not overwrite the original 'FFVII.' The original is the origin, and I hope you'll now think of this new 'FFVII' as separate from the original."

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!



Fuck you, Square Enix FFVII Remake team.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

O.O

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Things like that, a long with this whole thread, is what makes me believe they're pretty happy right now. lol Whether people agree or not, someone walking away frustrated but wanting more/answers is a sadistic dream of some writers. I can relate, ever so slightly.