SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I really hope there is no affinity system in the next game. Just want it to be the conclusion, show me exactly what you want me to see in the narrative. I don’t want a say in it lol.
Let's pray to god since they were hesitant to include the affinity system in Rebirth, they'll gut it in part 3.

Like Lex said, It's makes no sense whatsoever to include it since the only scene in part 3 that will change with it, would be the highwind scene, and with any hope, that scene is building up to be something special.
 
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nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Let's pray to god since they were hesitant to include the affinity system in Rebirth, they'll gut it in part 3.

Like Lex said, It's makes no sense whatsoever to include it since the only scene in part 3 that will change with it, would be the highwind scene, and with any hope, that scene is building up to be something special.
Going back to his comments on it, I’m trying to figure out how to interpret it. The “affinity system” is separate and just fun. So is that also separating the dialogue/side quests as part of the affinity system that ultimately leads to the reward of the GS date?
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Going back to his comments on it, I’m trying to figure out how to interpret it. The “affinity system” is separate and just fun. So is that also separating the dialogue/side quests as part of the affinity system that ultimately leads to the reward of the GS date?
The side quests and dialogue do count towards and are part of the affinity system in Rebirth, but we don't necessarily need an affinity system to have dialogue options and or character specific side quests.

Final Fantasy 7 isn't like, say, the walking dead by Telltale, where your actions and dialogue options genuinely change the story a decent bit. Doing away with the affection system in part 3 would only serve to benefit us, since Final Fantasy 7 isn't a "choose your own story" game, as said by Nomura that there are no "branching paths". The affinity system in part 3 wouldn't even serve as fanservice, it would serve to complicate things unnecessarily, since they would have to add things to warrant it in the first place, because as far as I know, there are literally no selectable dialogue options past Aeriths death.

Having the HA highwind scene be "non-optional" would actually be the absolutely undenial final nail in the coffin to even the MOST unaccepting people of the story that ff7 depicts. I'm trying to not get my hopes up......but I really hope an end is put to this whole 27 (atleast 30 by the time part 3 comes out) year fiasco, I've only been involved in this topic properly for about 2 or 3 months and I'm already exhausted with what it does to people's interpretations of these characters and this story. Having an unnecessary affinity system mess things up by adding new dialogue/new scenes would be so dissappointing.

sorry for the rant btw
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Having the HA highwind scene be "non-optional" would actually be the absolutely undenial final nail in the coffin to even the MOST unaccepting people of the story that ff7 depicts. I'm trying to not get my hopes up......but I really hope an end is put to this whole 27 (atleast 30 by the time part 3 comes out) year fiasco, I've only been involved in this topic properly for about 2 or 3 months and I'm already exhausted with what it does to people's interpretations of these characters and this story. Having an unnecessary affinity system mess things up by adding new dialogue/new scenes would be so dissappointing.

sorry for the rant btw
I really am trying to keep my expectations low as well with getting the HA UTD scene. I’d probably pterodactyl screech if it happens perfectly.

I think the game will start with them being distant since Cloud is on the cusp of his mental collapse, LS restores the closeness they’ve developed, and UTD seals the deal.

*and no need to be sorry, I have the same thought of begging SE to release me from this hell by ending the LTD for everyone.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Current Twitter cope is “the dates confirmed to be outside the main story, but such and such date is obviously the intended route because of this frame shown in the ultimania and because of this reference to the date in the main story.”
Yup, Clerith confirmed folks. Time to go home. /s

On a serious note, they're either all canon or none of them are. Being that selective is for sure just copium.

The dates are not outside the main story, they just don't affect the main story. They are there to depict Cloud's relationships and he reacts to all of them differently. The devs intentionally picked how Cloud reacted on each of these dates, and they intentionally programmed these dates this way. They made these decisions.

What the devs are saying is that there is no "canon" date, because they're all equally valid and Cloud would behave that way depending on who it is that shows up at the door.
 
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nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Current Twitter cope is “the dates confirmed to be outside the main story, but such and such date is obviously the intended route because of this frame shown in the ultimania and because of this reference to the date in the main story.”
I don’t even know what this point is supposed to argue.

Ok so Cloud rides the Skywheel with Aerith as the intended route and then we continue the game to the point where Aerith says she doesn’t know what “like” she feels towards Cloud. The fact that she dies being beside the point I suppose.

*It’s not about a handpicked moment, it’s the entire picture.
 

branklinn

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Kirin
I don’t even know what this point is supposed to argue.

Ok so Cloud rides the Skywheel with Aerith as the intended route and then we continue the game to the point where Aerith says she doesn’t know what “like” she feels towards Cloud. The fact that she dies being beside the point I suppose.

*It’s not about a handpicked moment, it’s the entire picture.
I also feel that Aerith’s dates, while they did have a romantic touch to them, they felt sad to me which I think is what some people miss. There’s a sense of loss or finality to them (which given what we know that should make sense), well at least to me. And I do not know if it’s been mentioned already but I felt the game really highlighted Cloud’s emotional intelligence when he wasn’t losing it. We see him comfort Tifa multiple times, plays along with Yuffie’s antics, goes along with Red’s excitement, comforts/reassures Barret in that gruff way of his and I really noticed this with Aerith. When he notices Aerith strange behavior he calls her out and lets her hold him especially in the last parts he lets her hold his hand after asking repeatedly what was up with her. He knows sometimes wrong with himself. I just really liked those detail and felt it helped deepened a lot of the scenes.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Lol do do chu.
Glad you liked my very silly joke.

There's so much to him imo. Someone who really loved his partner, Dyne and village. Thought he was doing the right thing by them w/initially working with Shinra. After losing everything he loved, dedicated his life to taking them down. Took in Marlene. Became a leader of an Avalanche cell. He's like a big teddy bear. I enjoy the times when he's brass/rough and when he's a softy. As the trilogy goes forward, the layers get peeled back. The flashbacks in Cosmo Canyon has been my favorite. We get all of him during those scenes. I've been through alot of the same things he has, just on a smaller scale. Maybe that's why I like him so much, idk.

I wish I could describe him better. I don't think what I'm saying actually does him justice haha
Barret is a giant softy inside a hulking frame. He's carried on by big emotions, and very good at rousing a crowd and making plans. He's the best sort of man to be a leader in peacetime, though by his own admission is not actually the best as a tactical leader in wartime, giving that role over to Cloud and later Cid.

Current Twitter cope is “the dates confirmed to be outside the main story, but such and such date is obviously the intended route because of this frame shown in the ultimania and because of this reference to the date in the main story.”
Allow me to state for the record that even granting the date arguendo out of the goodness of our hearts, it doesn't matter. It doesn't make any of the other dates any less true, doesn't make them any less valid windows into how Cloud reacts when he is called out by the people involved - remember, in each occasion, it is the opposite party that initiates, that asks him. So his actions on the Aerith date are just as true to his character on the Yuffie date, Barret date, Red date, and yes, the Tifa date.

Asking which date happened is missing the forest for the trees. Ask instead how Cloud acted during each Loveless, during each skywheel segment.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
He also puts Aerith behind him to protect her from Elena, uses his body to shield her from the sand storm, stays behind with Red XIII in Corel so Aerith can rest, uses his body to protect her from falling in Chapter 13, holds his hand for her to hold Chapter 14, tells her he doesn't mind if she takes it out on him in chapter 11, after giving her a mini tour, naturally responds to her hug, and easily holds hands with at the end of chapter 14, I'm not sure what the point was, but Cloud very much comforts Aerith as much as anyone (and other stuff that shows he cares like wondering if Aerith still likes Zack and later wanting her to know what he thinks he remembers to bring her some resolution, which shows he thinks about her, etc)
 
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noname4566

Lv. 1 Adventurer
He also puts Aerith behind him to protect her from Elena, uses his body to shield her from the sand storm, stays behind with Red XIII in Corel so Aerith can rest, uses his body to protect her from falling in Chapter 13, holds his hand for her to hold Chapter 14, tells her he doesn't mind if she takes it out on him in chapter 11, after giving her a mini tour, naturally responds to her hug, and easily holds hands with at the end of chapter 14, I'm not sure what the point was, but Cloud very much comforts Aerith as much as anyone.
of course he cares a lot about Aerith. But she wasn't the person Cloud shared his thoughts and feelings with. In real life, romantic relationships between individuals truly develop when both open their hearts and share their deep thoughts, life perspectives, and interests with each other.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
He also puts Aerith behind him to protect her from Elena, uses his body to shield her from the sand storm, stays behind with Red XIII in Corel so Aerith can rest, uses his body to protect her from falling in Chapter 13, holds his hand for her to hold Chapter 14, tells her he doesn't mind if she takes it out on him in chapter 11, after giving her a mini tour, naturally responds to her hug, and easily holds hands with at the end of chapter 14, I'm not sure what the point was, but Cloud very much comforts Aerith as much as anyone (and other stuff that shows he cares like wondering if Aerith still likes Zack and later wanting her to know what he thinks he remembers to bring her some resolution, which shows he thinks about her, etc)

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

Yes Cloud cares about Aerith. I don't think anyone said it was not the case.

Cloud cares about everyone. That's literally his character. That's why he takes shitty Merc missions during the game. It's the real Cloud speaking. He's a lonely boy with a golden heart. That's why Tifa fell in love in the first place. And that's why Sephiroth can't win against him. One discarded the world when the other wants to protect it in full.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
What the devs are saying is that there is no "canon" date, because they're all equally valid and Cloud would behave that way depending on who it is that shows up at the door.

- exactly and out of all of them only one can get a kiss initiated by Cloud himself ~ only one ~ I rest my case


Yes Cloud cares about Aerith. I don't think anyone said it was not the case.

Yes of course she is too ~ Aerith symbolizes the person Cloud wanted to protect he wasnt able to do with Zack~ its a sense of protection he's trying to imply himself with friends / family. Sadly he failed ~
 

parkdon

Rookie Adventurer
Warned: bad faith discourse
He also puts Aerith behind him to protect her from Elena, uses his body to shield her from the sand storm, stays behind with Red XIII in Corel so Aerith can rest, uses his body to protect her from falling in Chapter 13, holds his hand for her to hold Chapter 14, tells her he doesn't mind if she takes it out on him in chapter 11, after giving her a mini tour, naturally responds to her hug, and easily holds hands with at the end of chapter 14, I'm not sure what the point was, but Cloud very much comforts Aerith as much as anyone (and other stuff that shows he cares like wondering if Aerith still likes Zack and later wanting her to know what he thinks he remembers to bring her some resolution, which shows he thinks about her, etc)

What you want never happens
Cloud doesn't kiss Aerith, he kissed Tifa
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
What you want never happens
Cloud doesn't kiss Aerith, he kissed Tifa

Dude, once upon a time we got Cleriths in here worthy of a pithy, dismissive response. They were worthy of such because they were disingenuous, bat shit crazy, and all around awful to debate.

Maidenofwar is not one of them. And furthermore, last I knew this thread was moderated heavily to prevent it becoming the hilarious but toxic thing it once was.

TL;DR: Do us all a favor and knock it off. I'm still annoyed with your "liar liar" shit from a few pages back.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think what we see is Cloud being her bodyguard. She's the weakest physically in the group (even Yuffie who is much younger is trained), it adds with Zack asking him to protect Aerith but in the end, he fails and that really adds to his guilt.

I read Nomura and Kitase's interview, it's really interesting how they dived into Cloud's mental problems at the end, it showed that they researched this.
 

frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
The thing I don't understand about the people who say the date being "only fanservice" and Aerith's date is the only "canon route as what developers intended" is that they're clearly didn't care what the devs were saying that they were especially careful about how they wanted to depict each scene. Why do they actually think the devs intended for Tifa to receive a kiss just for shits and giggles?

What I got from the interview was that Nojima was saying that that affinity mechanics are tricky business and they couldn't go the traditional otome / persona-style / modern chose-your-romance route the way lots of games can, because certain character interactions and endgame relationships are already set in stone and they want to stay as true to those as possible, yet with some kind of choice flexibility.

They didn't want to risk giving the characters who have 0 romantic progression in the story (say, Cloud and Barret) dialogue or choice options that can lead to a romantic kiss on the date, and then the player having major WTF-age when the story does not ACTUALLY give you the canon outcome of Clarret.

Hence they had to think through the kind of responses Cloud can give a character. And you can clearly see how careful they were - in no way can you actually outright "reject" Tifa in your responses the way that you can in some otome games. You can only give her responses that might be disappointing to her as she perceives you to not be sensitive to some of their shared history, or you can be extremely perceptive and supportive of her.

In the same vein, there is way you can select an option to say "I love you" to Yuffie, because it just does not happen in the entire FFVII universe. You can either ONLY be mean-bro to her, or nice-bro to her.

And if the devs can explicitly say that people had been hankering for a Cloud/Tifa kiss for years and they bent to "fanservice, despite the canon couple of Cloud/Aerith" imagine part 3, where speculation has been wild if there will be a sex scene or not. If it happens - is it "fanservice"? Were devs "pressured"?

Sorry for the rant - I just got off twitter and it blows my mind how people cannot understand this! :sweat:
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I think what we see is Cloud being her bodyguard. She's the weakest physically in the group (even Yuffie who is much younger is trained), it adds with Zack asking him to protect Aerith but in the end, he fails and that really adds to his guilt.

I read Nomura and Kitase's interview, it's really interesting how they dived into Cloud's mental problems at the end, it showed that they researched this.
Zack asking to save Aerith was super weird to me but reading your thoughts make sense now.

It could totally be a setup to prepare Cloud fall in Part 3. The "I died for you and you failed at the only thing I asked in return" will hit really hard.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Dude, once upon a time we got Cleriths in here worthy of a pithy, dismissive response. They were worthy of such because they were disingenuous, bat shit crazy, and all around awful to debate.

Maidenofwar is not one of them. And furthermore, last I knew this thread was moderated heavily to prevent it becoming the hilarious but toxic thing it once was. B

TL;DR: Do us all a favor and knock it off. I'm still annoyed with your "liar liar" shit from a few pages back.
I second this, the reason I love being here is that there is actual discussion and an obvious desire to figure out what's actually going on. Almost all other places are either a shithole of people being so batshit insane that conversation is impossible and pointless, so it's just people shouting at each other, aka twitter, or such a echo chamber for one side that conversation becomes impossible, aka, most tumblrs, or they're so heavily forced to comply with the idea of "all takes are valid" that the entire discussion is pointless since you're not allowed to actually think or even care, aka reddit.


This is the only place where its possible to actually learn something and improve your understanding of the story by potentially engaging with opposite viewpoints. As a result cloti has essentially become the commonly accepted viewpoint here since, well, that's the story, but I don't want this place to turn into the same useless onesided shouting echo chamber as every other place. I like maidenofwar occasionally bringing a different perspective to discuss. It keeps us active and I'd like a bit more of it even.

Don't get me wrong, I dont want this place to become another war zone, but I do want this place to be welcoming to cleriths with an honest desire to just think about things, and maiden definitely qualifies so less negativity and hostility please Parkdon
 
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Hix

Pro Adventurer
The Ultimania shone some light on the devs views on relationship mechanics, in particular Nojima's, and it was quite surprising how distasteful they found them. Indeed, had they not existed in the part of OG that Rebirth focuses on, it has been suggested they more than likely wouldn't have been included even here at all.

In a way, it makes sense. Keeping the narrative tight and the story controlled, while balancing on the tightrope of faithfulness to the source material and keeping things fresh, somewhat demands that there be as little diverging paths as possible. The devs way around this - put the Gold Saucer dates, and romance mechanics in general, in the game, but make them somewhat removed from the overall story.

They still matter of course. As we discussed before, the Gold Saucer dates can still teach us how Cloud would react in each situation, where he to be in it, with each individual. In every case, it solidifies each individual's personal relationship with him and fits somewhat organically with the established order within the franchise.

Barret gives him advice in a kind of fatherly way, Aerith tries and fails to conceptualise her feelings for him within the wider context of her feelings for Zack, Yuffie and Red too share in a way that feels like you've grown so close to them (remarkably so in Yuffie's case, given the short time together) and Tifa and Cloud express their mutual romantic feelings for each other.

That's not for nothing, whether it happens in your particular playthrough of the game, whether you want to view it as canon, or even if it's outright stated to be mere fanservice. In fact, if it is fanservice then all the more glaring are the contrasts because there was scant impetus not to create these scenarios equally even if different. If it's all just fanservice, there's no reason for Cloud not to kiss Aerith unless the devs drew the line at having characters do things they would not do.

Nevertheless, the mere fact that the affection mechanics were so distasteful that they were only included by virtue of them existing in OG is proof, as if it was needed, that they will not be in part 3. Further, if the stated aim of rigid adherence to the source continues as it has, they simply can't be.

Cloud's entire journey is as much about finding himself as finding Sephiroth. Indeed, the player's journey is this. At the beginning Cloud is not himself and can be pushed one way or another, but by the end he has discovered who he really is. Tifa goes into his subconscious to heal his broken mind, only to discover that the real Cloud loves her and always has. There is no relationship mechanics here because regardless of what the player thinks of Tifa, Cloud loves Tifa. They then, for real this time, express their mutual romantic feelings for each other under the Highwind.

There's no options and no fan service. There's no need for any more drama either, the emotional build ups that have been stored away can finally be cashed in and start paying off, such as the aforementioned awakening to Cloud's real self and feelings, or the long awaited reunion between Zack and Aerith. These things are kept for the end when they'll have the most impact and we can finally look back on the Trilogy as a complete and beautiful story, crafted with love by the devs. I can't wait.
 
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thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
I think what we see is Cloud being her bodyguard. She's the weakest physically in the group (even Yuffie who is much younger is trained), it adds with Zack asking him to protect Aerith but in the end, he fails and that really adds to his guilt.

When Zack and Cloud fights Sephiroth I believe Aerith is already dead by then ~ so him asking to protect her is already futile ~ but in crisis core when cloud is dragging his sword as he flew away he did say in JP version " When you see Aerith take care of her for me.."

I believe Aerith death is cherry on top that Cloud must realize that death just some unexpectedly ~ even if you wanted things to turn out the way you want to even fate cannot defy it ~

Cloud as a child failed to protect Tifa back in younger days ( this boost up his sense of protection and will to be 'strong' ) so he can protect Tifa ~
He failed to become a soldier ( the idea of strong he has ) and met Zack ( his best buddy and ideal person) and yet he also failed to protect Zack ( and he dies in front of him) as he is too weak and catatonic

with everything that happened his pysche fractured and created this 'strong self - soldier cloud' and yet again FAILED to protect someone precious to him another comrades dies in front of him.

It could totally be a setup to prepare Cloud fall in Part 3. The "I died for you and you failed at the only thing I asked in return" will hit really hard.

I dont think Zack is the person who would blame him for things he wasnt able to fulfill~ i think it was in Final Fantasy Dissidia Omnia Opera ~ ( not related to ff7R but their personalities there is the same with less memories ) there was one scene there that Zack is able deduce himself that he's already dead and same with Aerith's and he just the coolest person just accepted it~

omg zaack ~ this is why i absolutely love him

-----
I'm not sure who posted it here but both Zack and Aerith are same who just calmly accepted their fate even given to them. Aerith also seems to know she's about to die and just accepted it even forgives those who caused her a lot of pains. Zack is also the same even in death ( other worlds / whaterver you call it ) he's still trying to save his co-soldiers ( i literally cried when he said this )

1713096186951.png

In Dissidia Omnia Opera also when he fought Sephiroth there he said there "You're not a monster you're one of us" - this is just who he is~

this is why i personally hate maiden and how Zack is protrayed there~ Zack is the real soldier first class even turn enemy he would never hate his co-soldier and yes that includes SEPHIROTH.
 
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Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
Ok so Cloud rides the Skywheel with Aerith as the intended route and then we continue the game to the point where Aerith says she doesn’t know what “like” she feels towards Cloud. The fact that she dies being beside the point I suppose.
Some people do believe that she's not actually dead with the way they handled the end and that said date is all rainbows and sunshines, so it's not that surprising.
 
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