SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

If we truly are finally getting canonized pairings i wonder how is SE going to handle upcoming Clerith cultist meltdown?

I think the main reason why this love triangle has been so ambiguous is that SE didn't want to piss off 50% of the fandom because it would be bad for business and affect negatively to sales and bottom line.

I think i noticed someone mentioning devs statements on how they want to remove this ambiguity. Can anyone provide me a link to these statements? I'd like to see them myself. I'm really interested because if that is really happening there is going to be a meltdown like never before when part 3 is released.

I agree. I personally believe the writers have already made a choice... but they've been deliberately silent about it for two reasons.

1. They know about a meltdown.

2. The LTD allows for them to sell more merchandise.

Personally, I think one big meltdown regardless of whether it is Cloti or Clerith is still better than years and years of flame wars that seemingly never end. So it would be in the fandom's best interest for it to end.

If I may be so bold, a part of me blames Square Enix the most for this LTD and not any of the Clotis or Cleriths, extremists or otherwise. It's not even the idea that they want it to be ambiguous, they deliberately seem to be wishy washy about it. Which I think does no favors for this LTD.

 

[Elkazor]

To be clear, I'm not mad if there turns out to be a canon pairing I just wanted to get my thoughts out about it.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

It's a mixture of both. Growing up, he thought he was better than everyone else. To be a first class SOLDIER you have to be "the best of the best." In his current delusions, he reached that legendary title and it means everything to him even if he hates Shinra now.

For a while, everyone's fawning over him, including Aerith for being a "cool" ex-SOLDIER. But then, as his time with Aerith comes to an end, she brings him to a park where she used to actively hang out with her ex-boyfriend who was also a first class SOLDIER. And thus his illusion of being special is shattered because Aerith has already experienced hanging around "the best of the best". I believe this is why the devs say his feelings are complicated in this moment.

So, let's say he was starting to consider Aerith a real romantic option.... Now all of a sudden she's talking about some other dude who had the same job AND title as him. Of course he's jealous. Suddenly, what he thought was a new and exciting experience for her is actually not new at all. He's being compared to someone else that he doesn't know and his existence isn't "special" but could perhaps even be mundane--which is his greatest fear.

That is exactly my thoughts. Aerith literally was praising him for being a cool SOLDIER in the beginning too. So it likely hurt his ego.

Also Toriyama mentions Cloud blocks out Zack's name as information he doesn't want to hear. And this complicated feeling adds depth to his character. Likely because his subconscious probably doesn't like the conflict of hearing about another SOLDIER and questioning himself and his own specialness. This Zack guy doesn't spark a good feeling but a complicated one so it makes sense that throughout he might feel negatively towards him just in general.

And I don't know if I'd say he is still feeling this way in Gongaga but he probably has not the best impression of this Zack guy till then and now he gets information that makes him think this Zack ghosted Aerith and broke her heart. His protective side would come out and yes call that guy who dared hurt her a loser.

But I also think in his head this guy sparks feelings of inferiority he doesn't like already so when he has the chance to insult him he doesn't feel bad about it. Like oh that guy really isn't so special after all good, screw him.

Until he sees Aerith and Tifa are upset at him for it and he is confused.
Then later he remembers this so called loser really loved Aerith and died horribly. That's probably a lot of weight on him. He probably even feels bad for resenting this guy and badmouthing him in front of her. And on top it telling her he was probably dead so callously. He also thinks she should know. It must be really just a lot to feel at once about a person he hasn't met but is important somehow.

Which is probably why it's on his mind still during the dates. I mean of course it would.

Edit: for clarity

 

[GamerSkull]

I think regardless of what Cloud says in Gongaga, he doesn't believe that anymore.

Hypothetically, if the group went to Nibelheim first and Cloud remembered Zack and then they went to Gongaga and the same events occured, there is no way I see Cloud calling Zack a "loser" at that point. In fact, the poor guy would probably be beside himself worrying how he was gonna break it to the Fair parents... just like he was with Aerith.

On that note, seriously... they need closure. How come nobody thinks of them? C'mon.

 

[GamerSkull]

To be clear, I'm not mad if there turns out to be a canon pairing I just wanted to get my thoughts out about it.

Totally understandable.

Another thing is, I genuinely like Zerith. I think Zack has been through enough and he deserves some happiness from beyond the grave too. We know from Advent Children that he is always present by Aerith's side. Once again, it kind of muddies things for him to still be devoted to her as both of them are in the Afterlife/Lifestream only for her to seemingly still be waiting to reunite with Cloud. Why do that to him? Plus, if he is there through Aerith's powers, then it's kinda unfair as she is basically saying "Well, until Cloud gets here, you'll do." Once again, it muddies things and I prefer not to think of the characters all ending up like this and it's unfortunately the only reading I could get from such a scenario.

Once again, this is just my perspective on why I personally believe CT and ZA should be endgame. It's a lot neater from a narrative standpoint, imo.

That's not to say other people's preferences don't matter. I just think... from a narrative standpoint, this is the best way for all the characters to have happy endings. Cuz even if Zack and Aerith are dead, the fact that they are together in this Lifestream heaven thing, is still something that could seem like a happy thing.

 

[nars305]

It’s interesting you say that. From the streamers I have seen who know nothing of FF7 and started with remake/rebirth only, seem to interpret that CT and ZA is a thing.

It’s because that’s what Rebirth is doing. I mean I don’t know what to say.

Remake was up in the air, I felt neutral. As a new fan I’ll say it didn’t really seem romance driven. Rebirth is not that way at all.

 

[imach0c0]

That is exactly my thoughts. Aerith literally was praising him for being a cool SOLDIER in the beginning too. So it likely hurt his ego.

Also Toriyama mentions Cloud blocks out Zack's name as information he doesn't want to hear. Likely because his subconscious probably doesn't like the conflict of hearing about another SOLDIER and questioning himself. This Zack guy doesn't spark a good feeling but a complicated one so it makes sense that throughout he might feel negatively towards him just in general.

And I don't know if I'd say he is still feeling this way in Gongaga but he probably has not the best impression of this Zack guy till then and now he gets information that makes him think this Zack ghosted Aerith and broke her heart. His protective side would come out and yes call that guy who dared hurt her a loser.

But I also think in his head this guy sparks feelings of inferiority he doesn't like already so when he has the chance to insult him he doesn't feel bad about it. Like oh that guy really isn't so special after all good, screw him.

Until he sees Aerith and Tifa are upset at him for it then he remembers this so called loser really loved Aerith and died. That's probably a lot of weight on him. He probably even feels bad for resenting this guy. It must be really just a lot to feel at once about a person he hasn't met but is important somehow.

Which is probably why it's on his mind still during the dates.

And seeing how prior to the date, when he "remembers" Zack for the first time, Zack is talking about his affection for Aerith. And moments later, he remembers him dying (though incorrectly). With that context, the Aerith GS date is actually tragic. On the surface, it can look romantic but the subtext seems to imply something really sad. And when Aerith mentions she has been seeing Zack in Cloud, but starting in that moment, she wants to meet and be with the real Cloud, it must be complicated for Cloud. To him, Aerith doesn't know the circumstances of Zack's whereabouts, let alone his death. And now, she is seeking something potentially romantic with Cloud, even if its just for that moment. I know there has been discourse on that "Tsunagi" hand hold but in this context, it seems Cloud did it to comfort Aerith as opposed to mutually returning any romantic feelings. Especially cause she says "just until the ride is over."

 

[nars305]

He's being compared to someone else that he doesn't know and his existence isn't "special" but could perhaps even be mundane--which is his greatest fear.

This interpretation is so sad to me lmao. Because in ToTP the fact that Cloud has the same desire to be a SOLDIER as other boys Tifa sees him as a normal boy. When she realizes that she then fell in love with him.

 

[overheat28]

Totally understandable.

Another thing is, I genuinely like Zerith. I think Zack has been through enough and he deserves some happiness from beyond the grave too. We know from Advent Children that he is always present by Aerith's side. Once again, it kind of muddies things for him to still be devoted to her as both of them are in the Afterlife/Lifestream only for her to seemingly still be waiting to reunite with Cloud. Why do that to him? Plus, if he is there through Aerith's powers, then it's kinda unfair as she is basically saying "Well, until Cloud gets here, you'll do." Once again, it muddies things and I prefer not to think of the characters all ending up like this and it's unfortunately the only reading I could get from such a scenario.

Once again, this is just my perspective on why I personally believe CT and ZA should be endgame. It's a lot neater from a narrative standpoint, imo.

That's not to say other people's preferences don't matter. I just think... from a narrative standpoint, this is the best way for all the characters to have happy endings.

There is a four letter word hardcore Cleriths dance around (or gleefully bandy about) for this situation and it begins with a C. This is essentially what they want for Zack, all said and done.

My opinion is if Aerith still wants to have unresolved or conflicted romantic feelings about Cloud in the lifestream/alternate world then set Zack free. Set him down in Gongaga or something, I'd rather he be with Cissnei or even alone than that disgusting situation. It's not fair to his character at all. He was better off dead in that case and shouldn't have been brought back. This is my greatest fear concerning what they will do with Zack at the end - ambiguity will be much worse than outright rejection.

 

[imach0c0]

There is a four letter word hardcore Cleriths dance around (or gleefully bandy about) for this situation and it begins with a C. This is essentially what they want for Zack, all said and done.

My opinion is if Aerith still wants to have unresolved or conflicted romantic feelings about Cloud in the lifestream/alternate world then set Zack free. Set him down in Gongaga or something, I'd rather he be with Cissnei or even alone than that disgusting situation. It's not fair to his character at all. He was better off dead in that case and shouldn't have been brought back. This is my greatest fear concerning what they will do with Zack at the end - ambiguity will be much worse than outright rejection.

What is the narrative purpose for Aerith to chase Cloud romantically and reject Zack?

 

[nars305]

What is the narrative purpose for Aerith to chase Cloud romantically and reject Zack?

It seems to not make much sense.

I can’t imagine SE bringing Zack back to the capacity that he is only for him to be rejected. Unless they say the rejection is what will set him free to rejoin the planet.

However Aerith rejecting him would make no sense because she says she still has feelings for him. The story also doesn’t point to Cloud chasing after Aerith romantically, so there’s not really a dilemma of her needing to make a choice between the two…

 

[Rin]

This interpretation is so sad to me lmao. Because in ToTP the fact that Cloud has the same desire to be a SOLDIER as other boys Tifa sees him as a normal boy. When she realizes that she then fell in love with him.

This is actually why I argue that the theme of FFVII isn't "life" and/or "death", but rather that it's "acceptance." Cloud can only become the type of man he truly wants to be once he accepts his true self. And his true self is just an average guy who loves his mom, his village, his childhood bestfriend, and all the new friends he's made along the way.

He never needed to be "the best of the best" to receive love and attention, he just needed to accept himself as he was and see that the people around him already loved him for him.

 

[overheat28]

What is the narrative purpose for Aerith to chase Cloud romantically and reject Zack?

There is no narrative purpose as it doesn't make any sense. It shouldnt happen.

I'm just saying it can't be ruled out they will cement Cloti but offer up Zerith as an ambiguous bone for hardcore Cleriths.

I'm just prepared to cut my losses as a Zack fan, is all. LTD makes money after all despite what Nojima might want.

 

[imach0c0]

There is no narrative purpose as it doesn't make any sense. It shouldnt happen.

I'm just saying it can't be ruled out they will cement Cloti but offer up Zerith as an ambiguous bone for hardcore Cleriths.

I'm just prepared to cut my losses as a Zack fan, is all. LTD makes money after all despite what Nojima might want.

I get what you mean. If they have a ZA reunion, what would be a satisfying way they could handle that? What would you like to see happen?

 

[Rin]

That is exactly my thoughts. Aerith literally was praising him for being a cool SOLDIER in the beginning too. So it likely hurt his ego.

Also Toriyama mentions Cloud blocks out Zack's name as information he doesn't want to hear. And this complicated feeling adds depth to his character. Likely because his subconscious probably doesn't like the conflict of hearing about another SOLDIER and questioning himself and his own specialness. This Zack guy doesn't spark a good feeling but a complicated one so it makes sense that throughout he might feel negatively towards him just in general.

And I don't know if I'd say he is still feeling this way in Gongaga but he probably has not the best impression of this Zack guy till then and now he gets information that makes him think this Zack ghosted Aerith and broke her heart. His protective side would come out and yes call that guy who dared hurt her a loser.

But I also think in his head this guy sparks feelings of inferiority he doesn't like already so when he has the chance to insult him he doesn't feel bad about it. Like oh that guy really isn't so special after all good, screw him.

Until he sees Aerith and Tifa are upset at him for it and he is confused.
Then later he remembers this so called loser really loved Aerith and died horribly. That's probably a lot of weight on him. He probably even feels bad for resenting this guy and badmouthing him in front of her. And on top it telling her he was probably dead so callously. He also thinks she should know. It must be really just a lot to feel at once about a person he hasn't met but is important somehow.

Which is probably why it's on his mind still during the dates. I mean of course it would.

Edit: for clarity

Yeah in regards to Gongaga, I think he's just saying what anyone in that situation would say if they're known for being a "brutally honest" type. You can tell he feels guilty about it because he immediately wants to talk to Aerith after he remembers Zack, so naturally it would come up when he's alone with either of them.

 

[nars305]

This is actually why I argue that the theme of FFVII isn't "life" and/or "death", but rather that it's "acceptance." Cloud can only become the type of man he truly wants to be once he accepts his true self. And his true self is just an average guy who loves his mom, his village, his childhood bestfriend, and all the new friends he's made along the way.

He never needed to be "the best of the best" to receive love and attention, he just needed to accept himself as he was and see that the people around him already loved him for him.

I agree.

I mean he kills Sephiroth when he is the most down on himself.

 

[SilverSisu]

LTD makes money after all despite what Nojima might want

This is what has made me bit nervous as well. Devs must know that if they are going to canonize Cloti then 50% of the fandom (cleriths) are going to have a meltdown.

This would be bad for business and hurt the sales and the bottom line. SE is still a company and companies want to make profit.

The idea of devs sacrificing Zerith and making Cloud and Aerith canon couple in some altered reality could in theory be possible if SE wants to please the other side of the fandom.

I understand your feelings of doubt, man. I have been bit nervous too and i was thinking maybe they brought Cissnei back because of this? Having Aerith moving on with Cloud and Zack being with Cissnei could be their way of doing damage control because if we only get cloti then shit is going to hit the fan. Cleriths will be pissed.

 

[Rin]

This is what has made me bit nervous as well. Devs must know that if they are going to canonize Cloti then 50% of the fandom (cleriths) are going to have a meltdown.

This would be bad for business and hurt the sales and the bottom line. SE is still a company and companies want to make profit.

The idea of devs sacrificing Zerith and making Cloud and Aerith canon couple in some altered reality could in theory be possible if SE wants to please the other side of the fandom.

I understand your feelings of doubt, man. I have been bit nervous too and i was thinking maybe they brought Cissnei back because of this? Having Aerith moving on with Cloud and Zack being with Cissnei could be their way of doing damage control because if we only get cloti then shit is going to hit the fan. Cleriths will be pissed.

If SE is worried about pissing off Cleriths then they should be 2x more worried about pissing off Clotis with a bait and switch because that's what will kill their bottom line for real.

 

[overheat28]

I get what you mean. If they have a ZA reunion, what would be a satisfying way they could handle that? What would you like to see happen?

For a ZA reunion, I just want a mutual and unambiguous affirmation of romantic feelings whether through words or actions or both.

We already know what Zack feels. The question is Aerith. It would be a nice mirror if she repeats her like and like like dialogue but this time with emphasis on the like like, sharply delineating what she feels for Zack is different to what she feels for Cloud. They could set it up nicely like that. Zack still unsure because Marlene's words are heavy on him and she can reassure him that its not so. There are many ways they could do it.

Ultimately, just a whole hearted affirmation or blunt rejection. Nothing in between. I can accept rejection but not the ambiguous koibito from a distance crap while the dude hangs out in the lifestream as a platonic plaything.

 

[SilverSisu]

For a ZA reunion, I just want a mutual and unambiguous affirmation of romantic feelings whether through words or actions or both.

Cloud and Tifa are going to have "action" so i hope Zack and Aerith are going to have much more than just mere words.

They can't just favor Cloti and leave Zerith hanging. Words without actions are empty and meaningless and this would also silence the most annoying Cleriths.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think the reason Cissnei was brought back was because her plotline ended in Crisis Core with no closure, so they wanted to show what she was up to... so fans wouldn't be wondering forever. It's like they said in Ultimania, they intended to bring things in from the Compilation to make things more cohesive as a whole.

I think if they wanted Zack to be with Cissnei, they should have spent some of this game setting that up as he never mentions or thinks of her once... and every thing he does is for Aerith. Not to mention, all of those implications at the end where Zack is guided by flowers or flowers help heal him while fighting Bizarro Sephiroth all seem to indicate that Aerith is still helping him in some capacity as well. And if this really ends with Advent Children, then obviously Zack isn't with Cissnei. He's with Aerith.

The Ultimania has already confirmed that these parallel worlds aren't parallel worlds in the normal sense. So it's not like the story will end with multiple timelines necessarily.

If SE is worried about pissing off Cleriths then they should be 2x more worried about pissing off Clotis with a bait and switch because that's what will kill their bottom line for real.

What's interesting to me is... if this is their mindset, they must have known that giving a Cloti kiss but not a Clerith kiss would hurt them in some way. They must have also known that doubling down on NPTK's true meaning would also hurt them. So why did they still push ahead? Why not just keep NPTK ambiguous? Why confirm what it means?

I do agree that the biggest thing keeping me from being 100% certain that the LTD will be over is the developers being worried about their bottom line, but I find it difficult to square away some of the choices they have already made if they truly did not want to confirm anything.

In fact, why not just keep the dates as they originally were in the OG? They had no reason to really change Tifa's date. But they did. Why?

 

[Rin]

In fact, why not just keep the dates as they originally were in the OG? They had no reason to really change Tifa's date. But they did. Why?

Nomura said they needed to speed up cloti's development for their plans in part 3, so yeah, a bait and switch seems very unlikely. Their commitment to Cloti also got them really, really good press and lead to really great reviews overall by game journalists. There are so many articles out there about the LTD finally coming to an end and framing it positively. Nojima also noted pre-Remake that he wasn't going to leave much up to interpretation this time which he understands will greatly upset some fans but he has conviction.

All that to say, SE would be foolish to walk it all back in part 3. Despite the loud voices of extremists, most people are happy to see the LTD come to an end and already consider it dead with Rebirth (as I do).

 

[SilverSisu]

There are so many articles out there about the LTD finally coming to an end and framing it positively. Nojima also noted pre-Remake that he wasn't going to leave much up to interpretation this time which he understands will greatly upset some fans but he has conviction

Could you provide us some links? I'd really like to see these statements.

 

[null]

I think the reason Cissnei was brought back was because her plotline ended in Crisis Core with no closure, so they wanted to show what she was up to... so fans wouldn't be wondering forever. It's like they said in Ultimania, they intended to bring things in from the Compilation to make things more cohesive as a whole.

I think if they wanted Zack to be with Cissnei, they should have spent some of this game setting that up as he never mentions or thinks of her once... and every thing he does is for Aerith. Not to mention, all of those implications at the end where Zack is guided by flowers or flowers help heal him while fighting Bizarro Sephiroth all seem to indicate that Aerith is still helping him in some capacity as well. And if this really ends with Advent Children, then obviously Zack isn't with Cissnei. He's with Aerith.

It’s weird. I know Cissnei isn’t a love interest, and I don’t care about her ending up with anyone, and yet my brain detects her as a massive spike in love interest energy. It’s all framing and expectations and tropes and clichés, zero to do with actual narrative. There really is some powerful psychology behind presentation in storytelling.

 

[GamerSkull]

It’s weird. I know Cissnei isn’t a love interest, and I don’t care about her ending up with anyone, and yet my brain detects her as a massive spike in love interest energy. It’s all framing and expectations and tropes and clichés, zero to do with actual narrative. There really is some powerful psychology behind presentation in storytelling.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure how the writers will have time to set it up considering they have A LOT to get through in Part 3.

But I also seem to recall one of the writers (might have been Nojima) say that he did not intend for there to be romantic chemistry between Zack and Cissnei and was surprised when it came off that way. I may be misremembering though.