Is the Planet capable of permanently ridding itself of Jenova?

[X-SOLDIER]

Let me start this off with some observations about the events in the FFVII universe:


Some of what I believe assisted Jenova's ability to regenerate was the fact that it was an alien - and thus it's lifestream didn't return to the Planet, because it was a foreign substance, basically the Planet has its own case of Geostigma. This idea originally came from the Red Lifestream seen coming from Sephiroth at the end of FFVII when he's defeated, and the comparisons for the body's currents with the Lifestream from Advent Children.

Original attempts to destroy Jenova simply split her apart, the energy reforming, cells, and the pieces reformed, resulting in Reunion. Eventually Jenova was defeated by the Cetra by being sealed away in the Northern Crater, and though her cells survived, she was rendered brain dead.

I believe this tells us a few things about Jenova, and the location chosen for her defeat by the Cetra.

North Crater is a place used for Reunion, as it's where Jenova originally landed on the Planet, and thus the easiest place for it's cells to naturally find their way back to. This would allow the Cetra to gather all of Jenova's cells into one place during a complete Reunion, and essentially freeze it all at once. The stasis wouldn't destroy it, but it prevented Reunion from continuing, because there were no active cells, preventing Jenova from doing anything.

Fast Forward 2000 years to when ShinRa begins using Jenova cells for enhancing SOLDIER.

Jenova's body kept at ShinRa, but it's will is inactive without a mind. When the abilities of the cells are discovered, it would be a natural use for creating power human enhancement. In small amounts, it would be able to enhance a SOLDIER without any vast side effects, but it means that Jenova's cells are becoming active again. However, when the doses get larger, things change.

With Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth, various effects are seen that seem to mimic Jenova's appearance (Jenova's mimetic legacy).

Image for Reference

Spoiler

Copies: part of Jenova's ability to mimic itself as other beings, mentioned in FFVII. Logically this would work both directions, and allow other beings to alter their own appearance closer to that of Jenova's original form if they posses her cells.
Wings: the black ones mimicking those on Jenova
Sephiroth - a smaller one from his right shoulder
Genesis - a larger one from his left shoulder
(Angeal's wing is a bit of an anomaly here, but I'd rather not get into that at present)
Eyes: I believe that it may also be a contributing factor to the glowing Mako Eyes only seen in SOLDIER, and later the cat-like eyes.

With more and more cells becoming active in living bodies, more cells are capable of being manipulated, and orchestrating a reunion. Finally when a concentration is large enough, and after Sephiroth learns about his origins, he continued on Jenova's legacy. Therefore Jenova isn't controlling Sephiroth, the overall will of Jenova is what Sephiroth strives to accomplish, and he's fully in control of this power, as it's his will that's manifesting it.

Even after death, and being broken into the Lifestream, Sephiroth manages to maintain his persona, and re-manifest when there is a significant amount of Jenova's cells brought into a host, in this case - Kadaj. Although it requires a large amount of active Jenova Cells gathering in one area to facilitate a Reunion, even after they're broken apart, and Sephiroth can no longer remain manifested, this doesn't seem to do anything for the fact that the cells still aren't being eliminated.

From what's seen in Advent Children, the tainted Lifestream carries Jenova's mimetic legacy, and passes it on to the children - allowing them to be manipulated when gaining a small portion of active cells from Kadaj - possibly because he lacks the ability to control them on without sharing some of his own cells. The Planet & the lifestream composing their bodies are incapable of combating the Geostigma on their own, and overcompensates, injuring those with it. Then, the power of the Cetra (Holy) cures the Geostigma, but this leaves a large, and rather important question. Does it only neutralize the active cells and prevent the body from continuing to fight them - as the Cetra had previously done, or is it actually eliminating them?

In short - will the Planet ever be capable of getting rid of Jenova cells/lifestream, or will it continue on through the Planet until it activates into another lifeform, and re-manifests?

The only things that I can think is if there's some way to neutralize and send all of Jenova's cells off of the world, or to actually somehow destroy them - which doesn't seem possible from what we've seen so far.


Anyhow - discuss.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Original attempts to destroy Jenova simply split her apart, the energy reforming, cells, and the pieces reformed, resulting in Reunion. Eventually Jenova was defeated by the Cetra by being sealed away in the Northern Crater, and though her cells survived, she was rendered brain dead.

Jenova wasn't really brain dead. It was in a stasis. It still was capable of thought as shown in FFVII and stated in the FFVII UO. It tried to dominate Sephiroth but his will was stronger and thus he dominated it, in return.

North Crater is a place used for Reunion, as it's where Jenova originally landed on the Planet, and thus the easiest place for it's cells to naturally find their way back to. This would allow the Cetra to gather all of Jenova's cells into one place during a complete Reunion, and essentially freeze it all at once. The stasis wouldn't destroy it, but it prevented Reunion from continuing, because there were no active cells, preventing Jenova from doing anything.

The Northern Crater was used as the site for Reunion because Sephiroth drifted there in FFVII and it was the gathering place of most of the planet's spirit energy. He used that energy to aid in his regeneration.

Trivia 1

Sephiroth all over the place.

In “FFVII” wherever Cloud and company go there is Sephiroth, but as a matter of fact it’s not Sephiroth’s real body. The headless Jenova stored in the ShinRa Building, is the one who manifests in Sephiroth’s form.

As for Sephiroth’s true self, when he fell inside the Nibel Mako Reactor it dissolved in the Lifestream, but over the course of five years his body reconstructed itself in the Northern Crater where the Lifestream concentrates as he bided his time for his revival.

Sephiroth Map

— Northern Crater
A crater created by Jenova’s impact a millennia ago. Sephiroth uses the planet’s energy gathered here to regenerate his body, and summon Meteor.

Fast Forward 2000 years to when ShinRa begins using Jenova cells for enhancing SOLDIER.

Jenova's body kept at ShinRa, but it's will is inactive without a mind. When the abilities of the cells are discovered, it would be a natural use for creating power human enhancement. In small amounts, it would be able to enhance a SOLDIER without any vast side effects, but it means that Jenova's cells are becoming active again. However, when the doses get larger, things change.

With Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth, various effects are seen that seem to mimic Jenova's appearance (Jenova's mimetic legacy).

(Image for Reference)

Spoiler

Copies: part of Jenova's ability to mimic itself as other beings, mentioned in FFVII. Logically this would work both directions, and allow other beings to alter their own appearance closer to that of Jenova's original form if they posses her cells.
Wings: the black ones mimicking those on Jenova
Sephiroth - a smaller one from his right shoulder
Genesis - a larger one from his left shoulder
(Angeal's wing is a bit of an anomaly here, but I'd rather not get into that at present)
Eyes: I believe that it may also be a contributing factor to the glowing Mako Eyes only seen in SOLDIER, and later the cat-like eyes.

With more and more cells becoming active in living bodies, more cells are capable of being manipulated, and orchestrating a reunion. Finally when a concentration is large enough, and after Sephiroth learns about his origins, he continued on Jenova's legacy. Therefore Jenova isn't controlling Sephiroth, the overall will of Jenova is what Sephiroth strives to accomplish, and he's fully in control of this power, as it's his will that's manifesting it.

Remember, Genesis and Angeal don't truly have Jenova cells. They only have part of the genes from Jenova cells that allowed them to inherit the abilities of Jenova within their own cells. They don't have a complete integration of full, pure Jenova cells like Sephiroth or other SOLDIERs do. Angeal and Genesis wouldn't really be apart of The Reunion.

Even after death, and being broken into the Lifestream, Sephiroth manages to maintain his persona, and re-manifest when there is a significant amount of Jenova's cells brought into a host, in this case - Kadaj. Although it requires a large amount of active Jenova Cells gathering in one area to facilitate a Reunion, even after they're broken apart, and Sephiroth can no longer remain manifested, this doesn't seem to do anything for the fact that the cells still aren't being eliminated.

You're neglecting Aerith's holy water that destroys the Jenova cells within a person and cures Geostigma.

From what's seen in Advent Children, the tainted Lifestream carries Jenova's mimetic legacy, and passes it on to the children - allowing them to be manipulated when gaining a small portion of active cells from Kadaj - possibly because he lacks the ability to control them on without sharing some of his own cells.

Kadaj and the other remnants don't have Jenova cells. Their beings of tainted spirit energy created by Sephiroth. They need to find the cells in order to be "whole again" which means...facilitating the Reunion and thus allowing Sephiroth to be reborn. The children were manipulated by Kadaj because his will in the black water resonated with their Jenova cells and controlled them.

The Planet & the lifestream composing their bodies are incapable of combating the Geostigma on their own, and overcompensates, injuring those with it. Then, the power of the Cetra (Holy) cures the Geostigma, but this leaves a large, and rather important question. Does it only neutralize the active cells and prevent the body from continuing to fight them - as the Cetra had previously done, or is it actually eliminating them?

It was Aerith's power, not Holy or any other Cetra. And it's eliminating them. How else would it cure Geostigma and make it gone? Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells. If its cured, that means the pathogen is gone.

In short - will the Planet ever be capable of getting rid of Jenova cells/lifestream, or will it continue on through the Planet until it activates into another lifeform, and re-manifests?

It did. That's why Geostigma is cured and said to appear only in AC in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

The only things that I can think is if there's some way to neutralize and send all of Jenova's cells off of the world, or to actually somehow destroy them - which doesn't seem possible from what we've seen so far.

I don't know what you'd call Aerith curing Geostigma then.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Jenova wasn't really brain dead. It was in a stasis. It still was capable of thought as shown in FFVII and stated in the FFVII UO. It tried to dominate Sephiroth but his will was stronger and thus he dominated it, in return.

I should really brush up on FFVII lore & such But still stasis - yes, holds my point on the original tactic used to subdue Jenova.

The Northern Crater was used as the site for Reunion because Sephiroth drifted there in FFVII and it was the gathering place of most of the planet's spirit energy. He used that energy to aid in his regeneration.

I was referring to the pre-Sephiroth encounters with Jenova, and containing her in the NC back 2000 years before everything in FFVII.

Remember, Genesis and Angeal don't truly have Jenova cells. They only have part of the genes from Jenova cells that allowed them to inherit the abilities of Jenova within their own cells. They don't have a complete integration of full, pure Jenova cells like Sephiroth or other SOLDIERs do. Angeal and Genesis wouldn't really be apart of The Reunion.

Though not a part of the reunion, it's still being integrated with a portion of Jenova's cells, and the changes that they cause that I was referring to.

You're neglecting Aerith's holy water that destroys the Jenova cells within a person and cures Geostigma.

I'll address this shortly, but I mis noted it being Holy, and not being Aerith's own ability.

Kadaj and the other remnants don't have Jenova cells. Their beings of tainted spirit energy created by Sephiroth. They need to find the cells in order to be "whole again" which means...facilitating the Reunion and thus allowing Sephiroth to be reborn. The children were manipulated by Kadaj because his will in the black water resonated with their Jenova cells and controlled them.

The tainted lifestream within a living creature's pure lifestream is like a more basic form of Jenova cells within a body, since broken down cells before lifestream, yes? Even at a basic level, Jenova's essence is still capable of regeneration and hold some abilities even without the cellular structure.

The point I'm making is that cells become lifestream after being destroyed, and eventually cycle and reform into cells of living things.

It was Aerith's power, not Holy or any other Cetra. And it's eliminating them. How else would it cure Geostigma and make it gone? Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells. If its cured, that means the pathogen is gone.

If Aerith's ability can neutralize or place the Jenova cells into stasis, it will stop the body from attacking them, but they aren't destroyed, and it would still cure the effects of Geostigma.

It did. That's why Geostigma is cured and said to appear only in AC in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

Weren't there still mentions of tainted lifestream caused due to Geostigma in DoC? Also what about the cases existing outside of Midgar?

I don't know what you'd call Aerith curing Geostigma then.

My question was does the cure Destroy the Jenova cells, or just place them into stasis within the body - the results both cure the disease, but one leaves the possibility that the cells will eventually be capable of gatherings and reforming again.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

The point I'm making is that cells become lifestream after being destroyed, and eventually cycle and reform into cells of living things.

That's the negative lifestream. When someone with Geostigma dies, those cells and spirit energy become corrupted and create Sephiroth's negative lifestream. It's the tainted spirit energy caused by Sephiroth's will and Jenova cells.

If Aerith's ability can neutralize or place the Jenova cells into stasis, it will stop the body from attacking them, but they aren't destroyed, and it would still cure the effects of Geostigma.

There is no stasis. You see the actual black spots caused by the Jenova cells disappear and be cured.

Geostigma is caused by the body being attacked by Jenova cells. If you're cured of Geostigma that means the cells are gone. When Cloud confronted Sephiroth after he was cured of Geostigma, Sephirtoh said "Your Geostigma is gone." If it was only a matter of the cells being inert, all he would have to do is merely use his own will power to once again force the cells to attack the body and thus the disease wouldn't be cured. If Geostigma is gone, that means its gone.

Geostigma

「 AC 」

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.

Back then we didn't know a thing about the stigma. People exposed to the Lifestream secreted a black ichor from their bodies, then died. Some said you could catch it through skin contact. Actually, it was remnants of Jenova mixed in the Lifestream that...well even if people knew, I doubt it would have made any difference.

Weren't there still mentions of tainted lifestream caused due to Geostigma in DoC? Also what about the cases existing outside of Midgar?

The 10th Anniversary Ultimania and its revised edition only say that Geostigma appeared in AC. What was shown in DC were people who still had Jenova cells in their body, not the actual disease. The fact the DG SOLDIER visors used the word "Geostigma" doesn't mean its the actual disease. In actuality it's more akin to a continuity error. It's never stated that Geostigma carried over into DC.

My question was does the cure Destroy the Jenova cells, or just place them into stasis within the body - the results both cure the disease, but one leaves the possibility that the cells will eventually be capable of gatherings and reforming again.


X

Well if its a cure, then it has to, since it has to work on the mechanism of action to make the stigma 'gone' and cured. If the cells and stigma disappear, then what else is there?

 

[Nolok]

Heh, your own post contradicts a lot of your 'theory':

It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers.

This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body.

If you read this properly, Jenova cells are NOT the cause of Geostigma but in fact the body overworking trying to get rid of them is and that when it is healed, it heals Geostigma (The black spots which ARE NOT Jenova cells).

The reason why Sephiroth was dissapointed was because Cloud wouldn't join the NL when he died.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why do you think the body is trying to purge the Jenova cells in the first place?

It's because of Sephiroth's will. Did you not watch ACC or read Lifestream Black?

Rufus says specifically that Sephiroth's will and mind are causing Geostigma from the Lifestream. The Jenova cells coupled with Sephiroth's will cause the cells to become malignant and thus attack the body and the body tries to fight them off and purge them.

There are two components to Geostigma. A biological cause and a spiritual one. I was merely addressing the physical. Sephiroth's will and spirit is the overall cause of the malady. He created it. Why else would Geostigma only show up once Sephiroth died? People had Jenova cells in their body since the beginning of SOLDIER and Geostigma never manifested itself at all in history. It was only until Sephiroth died and his will diffused into the planet that the disease popped up.

 

[Nolok]

Why do you think the body is trying to purge the Jenova cells in the first place?

I thought the planet was trying to get rid of them? That is what I got out of AC. "The planet was a lot madder than we thought" Or some such thing like that.

It's because of Sephiroth's will. Did you not watch ACC or read Lifestream Black?

Unfortunately I can't watch ACC yet .

Rufus says specifically that Sephiroth's will and mind are causing Geostigma from the Lifestream. The Jenova cells coupled with Sephiroth's will cause the cells to become malignant and thus attack the body and the body tries to fight them off and purge them.

I don't remember seeing any proof that Sephiroth was causing Geostigma from what you posted before, it clearly states that Geostigma is caused by the body fighting a losing fight. Also, is what Rufus thinks really the truth?

There are two components to Geostigma. A biological cause and a spiritual one. I was merely addressing the physical. Sephiroth's will and spirit is the overall cause of the malady. He created it. Why else would Geostigma only show up once Sephiroth died? People had Jenova cells in their body since the beginning of SOLDIER and Geostigma never manifested itself at all in history. It was only until Sephiroth died and his will diffused into the planet that the disease popped up.

I thought Sephiroth 'diffusing' into the Lifestream only contributed to giving a lot of people Jenova cells? Which the planet didn't like.

 

[Tetsujin]

I thought the planet was trying to get rid of them? That is what I got out of AC. "The planet was a lot madder than we thought" Or some such thing like that.

That was coming from a little girl who didn't know shit.
People blamed Geostigma on the planet/Mako/Lifestream etc. hence they called it Geostigma, but the planet had nothing to do with it. It was just a false assumption by the humans.

I don't remember seeing any proof that Sephiroth was causing Geostigma from what you posted before, it clearly states that Geostigma is caused by the body fighting a losing fight. Also, is what Rufus thinks really the truth?

Yes, but the body wouldn't try to fight off the cells if they didn't have a malicious effect on it. And normally, they don't. As the SOLDIER members prove, they can actually enhance you. But Sephiroth's will influences them to become malicious and trigger an immune reaction in the body, the symptom of which is the stigma.
That's why the stigma also only occurs after Sephiroth's death in FFVII and never before it.

If you get to watch ACC, it'll be explained in more detail there. Rufus says it's only "speculation" but it's rather spot on, since the purpose of the extended scene is to give the viewer more exposition, after all.

 

[Dark and Divine]

I thought the planet was trying to get rid of them? That is what I got out of AC. "The planet was a lot madder than we thought" Or some such thing like that.

People didn't knew that the cause of Geostigma was their own immunity system trying to purge Jenova cells that entered their bodies.

Spoiler

They thought that the cause was the Lifestream, as if the Planet gave them the disease because it was harbouring some hostility towards mankind. Marlene's words tend to reflect those thoughts.

I don't remember seeing any proof that Sephiroth was causing Geostigma from what you posted before, it clearly states that Geostigma is caused by the body fighting a losing fight. Also, is what Rufus thinks really the truth?

Yes. Sephiroth was exerting his will through the Jenova cells, making them active. A person's immunity system, feeling the Jenova cells' activity, would try to purge them, causing Geostigma.

If Sephiroth wouldn't do anything, the cells would be still inside that person's body, but they would be inert, thus harmless to the body. Therefore, the body wouldn't try to purge them.

This can be seen in Doc. There's still people with Jenova Cells in their bodies, but they don't suffer from Geostigma, because Sephiroth's will is not acting through them.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Yes. Sephiroth was exerting his will through the Jenova cells, making them active. A person's immunity system, feeling the Jenova cells' activity, would try to purge them, causing Geostigma.

If Sephiroth wouldn't do anything, the cells would be still inside that person' body, but they would be inter, thus harmless to the body. Therefore, the body wouldn't try to purge them.

This can be seen in Doc. There's still people with Jenova Cells in their bodies, but they don't suffer from Geostigma, because Sephiroth's will is not acting through them.

This is precisely my point- the cells are being rendered inert / being put in stasis and not being destroyed. It's not really surprising, because even the Cetra were incapable of destroying them at their full power. This explains why we see them in DoC, but Geostigma is not present - just like any other people with Jenova cells prior to AC. This cellular stasis is essentially the state that Jenova was originally left in by the Cetra before ShinRa found it - the difference here is that it's millions of cells broken apart, rather than intact into a single being.

Essentially speaking - as long as the Jenova cells remain intact on Gaia, they run the risk of being reactivated by a being that can exert it's will over them (say further experimentation is done on them in the future). Basically it seems at though the Planet can't rid itself of Jenova, it can only isolate the activity, and render it inactive for a period of time.



(For lack of a better analogy, Jenova is like the T-1000 from Terminator 2. If a piece is broken off, it'll travel back together, and reform the main being. However, without programming - it won't do anything. If you were to freeze it, it wouldn't be able to reform, and with no programming, it won't attempt anything, but it's definately not the same as it being destroyed. It could - with the proper conditions be re-activated).



X

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is precisely my point- the cells are being rendered inert / being put in stasis and not being destroyed. It's not really surprising, because even the Cetra were incapable of destroying them at their full power. This explains why we see them in DoC, but Geostigma is not present - just like any other people with Jenova cells prior to AC. This cellular stasis is essentially the state that Jenova was originally left in by the Cetra before ShinRa found it - the difference here is that it's millions of cells broken apart, rather than intact into a single being.

But Aerith couldn't have rendered the cells as harmless while Sephiroth was still alive in AC. She made them disappear (as shown by the black mark disappearing) and Sephiroth commenting that Cloud's Geostigma was gone.

If Aerith merely removed Sephiroth's will making the cells inert, that would prove useless because Sephiroth's spirit would still exist to cause Geostigma once more. Where are you getting this "stasis" theory, when its said the Geostigma was gone, and cured?

Essentially speaking - as long as the Jenova cells remain intact on Gaia, they run the risk of being reactivated by a being that can exert it's will over them (say further experimentation is done on them in the future). Basically it seems at though the Planet can't rid itself of Jenova, it can only isolate the activity, and render it inactive for a period of time.


X

And where is it shown they're intact, and just rendered inactive?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

This explains why we see them in DoC, but Geostigma is not present - just like any other people with Jenova cells prior to AC.

The Deepground soldier's assault on Kalm.

EDIT:
Can someone get a more clear screenshot of the Deepground soldier scanning the people from Kalm in DoC? This was the best I managed to find.

X

 

[Makoeyes987]

But the rain didn't fall on Kalm. It only fell on Edge. So the people of Kalm never were exposed to it.

And again, that's not Geostigma, those are just people who had Jenova cells in their body.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

But the rain didn't fall on Kalm. It only fell on Edge. So the people of Kalm never were exposed to it.

And again, that's not Geostigma, those are just people who had Jenova cells in their body.

We're not talking about Geostigma - we're talking about Jenova cells.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well using the people of Kalm is a bad example, because they are going to have Jenova cells in them. They weren't exposed to Aerith's rain, thus they'll still have inert Jenova cells in them. The people of Edge are the ones who were cleansed.

However, when they die, their bodies will no longer create a Negative Lifestream because Sephiroth is dead, and Aerith's holy water comes from the Lifestream itself. It's no longer incapable of destroying Jenova's cells that come into contact with the lifestream.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The fact is that I don't think we ever see the results on a cellular level, and can't say 100%, but here's why I think they're still intact and only in stasis.

Everything we know about Aerith's magic indicates that it wouldn't be able to destroy the cells. Her Limit Break abilities could heal the physical symptoms of Geostigma. These are still visible even after Sephiroth's defeated (Denzel at the end of AC). Secondly - in the history of the FFVII Universe, no one has been able to permanently destroy the Jenova Cells, the Cetra, even at their full power, could only place them into stasis - and Aerith is only a half Cetra (& mostly dead).

In addition to that, Cloud retains his supernatural abilities granted by the Jenova Cells (floating while fighting Sephiroth, huge jumps, etc), even after his Geostigma is cured. He only gained after he was experimented on by Hojo, and was a pretty average person before that, suggesting that Aerith's Cure is just cutting off Sephiroth's control from the cells, thus stopping the body's reaction to fight against them, and healing the scars, not destroying them.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact is that I don't think we ever see the results on a cellular level, and can't say 100%, but here's why I think they're still intact and only in stasis.

Everything we know about Aerith's magic indicates that it wouldn't be able to destroy the cells. Her Limit Break abilities could heal the physical symptoms of Geostigma. These are still visible even after Sephiroth's defeated (Denzel at the end of AC). Secondly - in the history of the FFVII Universe, no one has been able to permanently destroy the Jenova Cells, the Cetra, even at their full power, could only place them into stasis - and Aerith is only a half Cetra (& mostly dead).

Denzel didn't touch the healing water like Cloud did until the end of the film. So of course his physical symptoms would remain. However when he did get exposed, the physical manifestation of his infection of Jenova cells *did* disappear. Again, why would Sephiroth state to Cloud his Geostigma was gone, if it was only merely dormant, capable of re-awakening again?

And no Cetra was ever capable of using the power of the lifestream to stop an astral body from colliding with the planet. Don't underestimate Aerith's power just because she's half Cetra.

In addition to that, Cloud retains his supernatural abilities granted by the Jenova Cells (floating while fighting Sephiroth, huge jumps, etc), even after his Geostigma is cured. He only gained after he was experimented on by Hojo, and was a pretty average person before that, suggesting that Aerith's Cure is just cutting off Sephiroth's control from the cells, thus stopping the body's reaction to fight against them, and healing the scars, not destroying them.

Cloud's supernatural abilities don't just come from Jenova cells. He was infused with mako and he already had a latent power within him since he was a grunt. He was able to split an AVALANCHE Raven (which is on par with a SOLDIER) in Before Crisis, clean in half without prior sword experience. Laying all of his super powers on Jenova is a gross underestimation. Furthermore, the Tsviets of DC don't have Jenova cells within them either, and yet they still have supernatural abilities as well.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Denzel didn't touch the healing water like Cloud did until the end of the film. So of course his physical symptoms would remain. However when he did get exposed, the physical manifestation of his infection of Jenova cells *did* disappear. Again, why would Sephiroth state to Cloud his Geostigma was gone, if it was only merely dormant, capable of re-awakening again?

Geostigma isn't the physical manifestation of the Jenova Cells, it's the body fighting the Jenova Cells, because it detects them as a foreign substance. It's basically tissue rejection, like when someone gets a transplant. Cloud's Geostigma is gone, but that doesn't mean that his Jenova cells are gone. There are plenty of ways to cure rejection (Geostigma), especially if the foreign cells that can mimic those of the host.

Again, Geostigma =/= Jenova Cells.

And no Cetra was ever capable of using the power of the lifestream to stop an astral body from colliding with the planet. Don't underestimate Aerith's power just because she's half Cetra.

Is there documentation that Aerith used the Lifestream, and it wasn't the Planet protecting itself by using the Lifestream as a weapon? As I recall, she set up Holy, but it wasn't 100% effective. Especially at this point - if Aerith or the Planet were capable of destroying the Jenova Cells it seems that it would have been done.

Cloud's supernatural abilities don't just come from Jenova cells. He was infused with mako and he already had a latent power within him since he was a grunt. He was able to split an AVALANCHE Raven (which is on par with a SOLDIER) in Before Crisis, clean in half without prior sword experience. Laying all of his super powers on Jenova is a gross underestimation. Furthermore, the Tsviets of DC don't have Jenova cells within them either, and yet they still have supernatural abilities as well.

True, but there are only 2 people that I can think of who's jumps allow them to essentially floataround and generally defy gravity - Cloud & Sephiroth, and I highly doubt that's due to Mako, it seems to be a Jenova-cell related ability - but that's still speculation. (I'm not including Nero's movement, because his experimentation origins are completely different from Cloud & Sephiroth's)



X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Geostigma isn't the physical manifestation of the Jenova Cells, it's the body fighting the Jenova Cells, because it detects them as a foreign substance. It's basically tissue rejection, like when someone gets a transplant. Cloud's Geostigma is gone, but that doesn't mean that his Jenova cells are gone. There are plenty of ways to cure rejection (Geostigma), especially if the foreign cells that can mimic those of the host.

Again, Geostigma =/= Jenova Cells.

Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells though. It wouldn't exist if Jenova cells were never present in the body. Furthermore, if it weren't cured and the Jenova cells eradicated, why does the Negative Lifestream disappear when Aerith's rain falls? The Negative Lifestream is created by Jenova cells inhabiting and mixing with the Lifestream. Why does it become pure, lifestream again?

There are only two components to Geostigma. The biological component caused by Jenova cells being present in the body, and Sephiroth's spirit, causing the cells to become hostile. How could Aerith's water stop Sephiroth's spirit while it's still in tact and residing within the Lifestream? You can't stop Sephiroth's will. The only way she'd be able to cure Geostigma with Sephiroth still alive, would be for her to remove the substance entirely.

Is there documentation that Aerith used the Lifestream, and it wasn't the Planet protecting itself by using the Lifestream as a weapon? As I recall, she set up Holy, but it wasn't 100% effective. Especially at this point - if Aerith or the Planet were capable of destroying the Jenova Cells it seems that it would have been done.

[ ν ] - εуλ 0008/1

· FFVII
She used a portion of the Lifestream to stop Meteor’s descent.

True, but there are only 2 people that I can think of who's jumps allow them to essentially floataround and generally defy gravity - Cloud & Sephiroth, and I highly doubt that's due to Mako, it seems to be a Jenova-cell related ability - but that's still speculation. (I'm not including Nero's movement, because his experimentation origins are completely different from Cloud & Sephiroth's)



X

You're neglecting Rosso the Crimson, Vincent and the Tsviets among others.

And Cloud was still capable of superhuman feats even as a grunt, the only problem was that he was unaware of his power and not confident enough.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Geostigma is caused by Jenova cells though. It wouldn't exist if Jenova cells were never present in the body. Furthermore, if it weren't cured and the Jenova cells eradicated, why does the Negative Lifestream disappear, which is created by Jenova cells inhabiting and mixing with the Lifestream? Why does it become pure, lifestream again?

There are only two components to Geostigma. The biological component caused by Jenova cells being present in the body, and Sephiroth's spirit, causing the cells to become hostile. How could Aerith's water stop Sephiroth's spirit while it's still in tact and residing within the Lifestream? You can't stop Sephiroth's will. The only way she'd be able to cure Geostigma with Sephiroth still alive, would be for her to remove the substance entirely.

Geostigma is caused by active Jenova cells with the will of Sephiroth forcing them to attack the host's body. It's not caused by just having Jenova cells. This the reason it's never been seen before, and all the SOLDIER were able to use the cells to become stronger. This also means that it's curable without destroying the cells as long as Sephiroth's will isn't able to cause them to attack the host's body.

Let's go back to the Cetra combating Jenova again. When Jenova still had a strong will and was a single being, the Cetra put her cells in stasis, she couldn't orchestrate Reunion, or continue to do anything, even though her will was still active. Her cells were still alive 2000 years later - they were just cut off from her spirit essentially, and she was unable to do anything.

I think that this is what Aerith cure is doing - cutting off the cells from Sephiroth's active spirit, and thus rendering them inert, and without a purpose. The cells no longer attack the host's body to cause Geostigma, but they're still intact. If the cells are no longer a harmful substance, the body will no longer combat them, thus the cause of the Geostigma is removed. Finally, her healing also sures the physical wounds.

This explains why after Sephiroth dies, there are still people in Kalm & all over the world who haven't been cured by the water in Aerith's church, posses Jenova cells, but they aren't suffering from Geostigma - there's no will causing the Jenova Cells to attack their bodies. The wounds would have healed on their own. Thus Jenova cells act just like they originally did in FFVII, and Geostigma is stopped.


(Thanks for the info about Aerith controlling the Lifestream)

You're neglecting Rosso the Crimson, Vincent and the Tsviets among others.

And Cloud was still capable of superhuman feats even as a grunt, the only problem was that he was unaware of his power and not confident enough.

I don't recall the Tsviets floating, but Vincent is a good point, though there's a lot of other factors at work there too. I believe it's stated that Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER because he wasn't mentally capable of withstanding the prolonged Mako exposure. But that's not really the main point, so let's focus on Geostigma, and the Jenova cells, rather than other people's abilities.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Let's go back to the Cetra combating Jenova again. When Jenova still had a strong will and was a single being, the Cetra put her cells in stasis, she couldn't orchestrate Reunion, or continue to do anything, even though her will was still active. Her cells were still alive 2000 years later - they were just cut off from her spirit essentially, and she was unable to do anything.

Her spirit wasn't cut off from anything. She was still alive, and just asleep.

I think that this is what Aerith cure is doing - cutting off the cells from Sephiroth's active spirit, and thus rendering them inert, and without a purpose. The cells no longer attack the host's body to cause Geostigma, but they're still intact. If the cells are no longer a harmful substance, the body will no longer combat them, thus the cause of the Geostigma is removed. Finally, her healing also sures the physical wounds.

Again, why does the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of tainted lifestream filled with Jenova cells, become purified and made clean, when it comes into contact with Aerith's purifying water? How is it becoming purified if it isn't being cleansed of the substance that made it tainted in the first place?

This explains why after Sephiroth dies, there are still people in Kalm & all over the world who haven't been cured by the water in Aerith's church, posses Jenova cells, but they aren't suffering from Geostigma - there's no will causing the Jenova Cells to attack their bodies. The wounds would have healed on their own. Thus Jenova cells act just like they originally did in FFVII, and Geostigma is stopped.

People still have Jenova cells in Kalm and in other parts of the world, because Aerith's water only fell over Edge. That's the real explanation. Aerith's rain didn't fall over the planet.

I don't recall the Tsviets floating, but Vincent is a good point, though there's a lot of other factors at work there too. I believe it's stated that Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER because he wasn't mentally capable of withstanding the prolonged Mako exposure. But that's not really the main point, so let's focus on Geostigma, and the Jenova cells, rather than other people's abilities.


X

Well you said one reason to support your assertion Cloud still had Jenova cells was due to his superhuman abilities such as floating and super strength, but that's not just from Jenova and he demonstrated some of those abilities without them. As have other people without Jenova. But okay

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Her spirit wasn't cut off from anything. She was still alive, and just asleep.

She's essentially fine aside from being really really old. Is there any stated explanation as to why she didn't wake up earlier, like pre-Sephiroth?

Again, why does the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of tainted lifestream filled with Jenova cells, become purified and made clean, when it comes into contact with Aerith's purifying water? How is it becoming purified if it isn't being cleansed of the substance that made it tainted in the first place?

It's the same reason that all the SOLDIER with Jenova cells that had previously died in the wars and conflicts didn't generate a Negative Lifestream until Sephiroth began manifesting his will to cause their lifestream to strangle the Planet.

Geostigma and Negative Lifestream are a direct effect of Sephiroth's manipulation upon the Jenova Cells, and those cells that have been reduced to Lifestream, not of the cells themselves.

People still have Jenova cells in Kalm and in other parts of the world, because Aerith's water only fell over Edge. That's the real explanation. Aerith's rain didn't fall over the planet.

Yes, but they stopped suffering from Geostigma because Sephiroth's will that caused the cells to attack their bodies was defeated. Jenova Cells on their own don't have any negative effect on the body - they have a beneficial effect in many cases. It seems like it'd be much easier to subdue them than destroy them - especially with Aerith's magic centering around healing.

Well you said one reason to support your assertion Cloud still had Jenova cells was due to his superhuman abilities such as floating and super strength, but that's not just from Jenova and he demonstrated some of those abilities without them. As have other people without Jenova. But okay

Yeah, but I forgot about all the other sources of abilities / factors that complicate that argument, and easily take it away from the main topic.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's the same reason that all the SOLDIER with Jenova cells that had previously died in the wars and conflicts didn't generate a Negative Lifestream until Sephiroth began manifesting his will to cause their lifestream to strangle the Planet.

That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that it was still purified and made clean by her water. Something was washed out of it. You can't cleanse something intangible as a thought or "will", X. It's Sephiroth's desire and thoughts that cause the Jenova cells to cause the stigma.

There are two factors that pollute the Negative Lifestream; Sephiroth's will, and Jenova cells. How does Aerith's rain cleanse something intangible such as "will" or a "thought?" Furthermore, Sephiroth was already defeated. So his will would've been smashed anyways. The only thing sustaining the impurity would be Jenova cells. Even though a Negative Lifestream never existed before, the Lifestream was still unclean by Jenova's influence.

Geostigma and Negative Lifestream are a direct effect of Sephiroth's manipulation upon the Jenova Cells, and those cells that have been reduced to Lifestream, not of the cells themselves.

Why is it hard to believe that the actuall cells themselves have been destroyed? What will it take for you to believe they're gone?

Yes, but they stopped suffering from Geostigma because Sephiroth's will that caused the cells to attack their bodies was defeated. Jenova Cells on their own don't have any negative effect on the body - they have a beneficial effect in many cases. It seems like it'd be much easier to subdue them than destroy them - especially with Aerith's magic centering around healing.

Why would Aerith willingly leave Sephiroth's gene and mimetic legacy within people if she's capable of destroying it? They're hardly benign at all. As you've stated, they're capable of being used again if a powerful will acts on them, and they can mutate people and turn them into monsters, as seen in the Cetra and Hojo. Why would they be left behind?

 

[Nolok]

What exactly was Sephiroth trying to accomplish with activating Jenova cells inside people? To start another Jenova Virus, or?

"A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet."

 

[Makoeyes987]

As Sephiroth stated in AC, he wanted the Negative Lifestream to corrode the planet, and thus contaminate the entire Lifestream and put it under his control.

As stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Case of Denzel, and ACC, Jenova cells within the body, coupled with Sephiroth's will, is the cause of Geostigma.

Now if the creators state Aerith cured and healed Geostigma, that must mean she eliminated the cause. The definition clearly state the cause is Jenova cells within the body, harming the body and causing the body to try to fight off the substance. The Jenova cells are the disease, which are being made malignant by Sephiroth.

If Aerith is curing the disease, the physical symptoms of Geostigma, she must be acting on the physical cause of the diease, which are the actual cells. She can't cure a thought, or "will" belonging to another person. She can't remove Sephiroth's intent of causing harm via Jenova cells. As Lifestream Black shows, Aerith couldn't come close to Sephiroth because of how dangerous and threatening he was within the Lifestream. She had to have acted on the actual biological cause of the disease, which are the Jenova cells. If she just made the body accept the cells or anything else, they would've been harmed by the cells anyways.