SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Don't know about you but i never claimed to be right. I was just going with the statements the devs have given us over the years. I'd happily be wrong in this one.

Well, what carries more weight for you? Statements and isolated moments or the entire picture?

I ask because I think that what’s going on with the romance pairings seems pretty straight forward. I feel like it gets over complicated because people either don’t like the pairing or try to make themselves feel better about their pairing. I understand the devs comments give insight and yada yada, but they present to me a story…which is what I focus on. If they tell me Cloud is in love with Aerith in Rebirth, then I genuinely question the choices they made in the game.


It is painfully obvious they are paring Cloud and Tifa and Aerith and Zack.

 

[imach0c0]

That is just my guess with the idea of "What kind of like this is." And on why the devs would even have her say there is a difference. Because the difference is not between romantic and not. It's implied to be types of suki. Types of romantic feelings.

And why else make this comparison?

Do you think the liking VS liking is related to her still harbouring feelings for Zack OR because she has not really met the "real" Cloud? OR is there another reason?

Also -- I like your analysis on things, your provide interesting insights to the discussion.

 

[Rin]

I mean in another context it could. But I don't think in this context it is anything but romantic. She outright tells him Clou ga suki. That comes across as romantic in implications. Because before she was warning herself not to fall in love "suki ni naranaide" and she just had a dream date where she wanted to do date stuff with him and she talks about where they stand and tells him Sorry before hugging him and just the call back to the lines "It was that special kind of like" for Tifa in TOTP.

All these contexts are romantic.

No, I get that but I'm more so wondering if she's wondering if her feelings are romantic or platonic, even in JP as suki can be used platonically as well. Like "Daisuki" is more romantically coded than "Suki desu" for example because you can say the latter to your friend but you'd never say the former to them unless you were straight up confessing romantic feelings.

I only ask because in English it's like, "There's a difference between liking and liking" and there's only one way to take that aka liking platonically and liking romantically.

 

[SilverSisu]

It is painfully obvious they are paring Cloud and Tifa and Aerith and Zack.

I hope so after all those "Cope harder" and "Zack is getting cucked" comments i have gotten on youtube comment sections.

It would be really sweet if in the end Zack bros are the ones who are getting the last laugh.

 

[Yoru]

You won't convince me that the phrase "Now I know where we stand" is something you say in a successful confession.

It doesn't fit at all a romantic setting.

 

[imach0c0]

No, I get that but I'm more so wondering if she's wondering if her feelings are romantic or platonic, even in JP as suki can be used platonically as well. Like "Daisuki" is more romantically coded than "Suki desu" for example because you can say the latter to your friend but you'd never say the former to them unless you were straight up confessing romantic feelings.

I only ask because in English it's like, "There's a difference between liking and liking" and there's only one way to take that aka liking platonically and liking romantically.

I don't know if this changes the context or meaning of the suki (like) but in JP, Aerith says: (note: the ENG is a rough translation)

クラウドの気持ち　聞けてよかった - I'm glad I know Cloud's feelings
わたしは　クラウドが好き - I like you Cloud
でも　好きにも　色々あるよね - But there many kinds of like
この好きは　どの好きなんだろう - This like, I wonder what kind it is for me

 

[Yoru]

クラウドの気持ち　聞けてよかった - I'm glad I know Cloud's feelings

Cloud's feelings being him saying : Let's make more memories, it was fun. (We are friends/Why not? according to your affection status)

So people are free to understand it as Cloud confessing his eternal love to Aerith. But as far as I'm concerned, it's a lot of mental gymnastics trying to shoehorn in any kind of romance.

 

[billy22]

The devs have stated time after time that there is no canon romance.

Not a single quote you posted says this. Most of these were debunked years ago. I'll just pull your first one as a quick example:

"Depending on the player, it’s natural for them to say, “I like Tifa. No, I prefer Aeris,” so I wanted to shape things in reflection of that, or in other words, create a system that reacts to the players’ feelings. For example, if the game had a completely straightforward path, I might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons, even though Aeris is the one I like, it gets to feel something like that, so I wanted to get rid of that approach. It’s not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflects the player’s feelings."

Notice how "romance" is not mentioned once. This quote says you can "shape things in reflection of [who you prefer]." Which you can. If I want to 'date' Barret I can. I can't romance him though. The quote also says "It's not that there are branching paths." Because you're stuck on the predetermined narrative, regardless of who you choose to hang out with.

Mind you, I don't remember Square coming out and telling me Zidane/Garnet were canon either. Unless you're counting ultimanias.

 

[Rin]

I don't know if this changes the context or meaning of the suki (like) but in JP, Aerith says: (note: the ENG is a rough translation)

クラウドの気持ち　聞けてよかった - I'm glad I know Cloud's feelings
わたしは　クラウドが好き - I like you Cloud
でも　好きにも　色々あるよね - But there many kinds of like
この好きは　どの好きなんだろう - This like, I wonder what kind it is for me

Thank you!

From the rough translation, I would say that platonic like can definitely be included here as she's talking about the many different forms of liking someone a person can feel and isn't sure where her feelings land on the spectrum.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

No, I get that but I'm more so wondering if she's wondering if her feelings are romantic or platonic, even in JP as suki can be used platonically as well. Like "Daisuki" is more romantically coded than "Suki desu" for example because you can say the latter to your friend but you'd never say the former to them unless you were straight up confessing romantic feelings.

I only ask because in English it's like, "There's a difference between liking and liking" and there's only one way to take that aka liking platonically and liking romantically.

I didn't take the English line that way. Because that line is a comparison to Traces of Two Pasts. "The special kind of suki that ties up your heart" is love. First love. So I took it as the difference between a crush and something deeper.

Yeah she is definitely wondering in general the nature of her feelings. I'm just saying I don't think the answer is she feels platonically sorry that wasn't clear.

And I mean it's not impossible. It can be included. But the way Aerith acts on the date implies she is interested. Also as I have said it would really contradict with her other versions if this one was thinking platonically about Cloud. I think for she had loved him implied she did love him romantically but chose not to go beyond. But Remake Aerith is saying Suki ni naranaide because she is warning herself. It follows the trend this Aerith makes peace with her romantic feelings but it doesn't mean the feelings are suddenly platonic when up to that point we see her clearly interested.

She is just questioning it.

Also just the context of different types of like implies the comparison between types of feelings for Zack and Cloud as I said rennai and koi.

I don't know if she felt platonically by the end if the devs would even be mentioning "types of like" vs them just talking about what a great friend he is.

But that's just how I took it.

 

[SilverSisu]

RE: Edit Post
Under the post, it only shows Quote or Reply

There are three dots next to report button. Press it and it gives you an option to either edit or delete your post.

 

[nars305]

I hope so after all those "Cope harder" and "Zack is getting cucked" comments i have gotten on youtube comment sections.

It would be really sweet if in the end Zack bros are the ones who are getting the last laugh.

Well, people who say things like that obviously care about the characters.

 

[Rin]

I didn't take the English line that way. Because that line is a comparison to Traces of Two Pasts. "The special kind of suki that ties up your heart" is love. First love. So I took it as the difference between a crush and something deeper.

And I mean it's not impossible. It can be included. But nothing points to me that is what she means. The way Aerith acts on the date implies she is interested. Also as I have said it would really contradict with her other versions if this one was thinking platonically about Cloud. I think for she had loved him implied she did love him romantically but chose not to go beyond. But Remake Aerith is saying Suki ni naranaide because she is warning herself. It follows the trend this Aerith makes peace with her romantic feelings but it doesn't mean the feelings are suddenly platonic when up to that point we see her clearly interested.

Also just the context of different types of like implies the comparison between types of feelings for Zack and Cloud as I said rennai and koi.

I don't know if she felt platonically by the end if the devs would even be mentioning "types of like" vs them just talking about what a great friend he is.

But that's just how I took it.

So, for me, I don't see a point in comparing a crush to full blown romantic love. She just met Cloud two weeks ago, so of course her feelings for him aren't on the scale of her feelings for Zack. They can't be lol.

I also think it would be silly for her to be musing about whether her like for Cloud differs from her like for Zack and whether that means something important or not. If she's trying to move on, having any romantic feelings at all for Cloud is a good thing and a great motivator to push her forward.

She only begins to muse on what kind of like she feels after Cloud "rejects" her (no matter the dialogue) which is very strange. Why would that cause her to reflect if the "like" she feels is romantic either way? What, exactly, is there to reflect on at that point in time if she now "knows where they stand"?

Like idk, to me it seems a bit nonsensical and makes more sense for her to be considering whether she mistook "really liking Cloud" as a friend with "really liking Cloud" as a potential romantic partner.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's just from some dude doing video essay on youtube like any other dudes.
And I see people pissed that the game is sticking to OG and want the third one ending differently. So I was just curious about the opinion here.

Personally I'm on the team simple Remake + Expanded lore + Compilation recollection

I can't say anything about the predictions because I think trying to predict something in Re-Trilogy is a bit of a headache, lol. But I think a post-game epilogue would be nice.

As for the current topic of discussion, wasn't COLW a contrast to COLB? So if Sephiroth talks about hating Cloud, doesn't it make sense for his contrast to talk about loving Cloud? And didn't they start expanding on Zack and Zerith in Crisis Core? Which was released after COLW and AC? So it makes sense if Zack wasn't mentioned much because he wasn't (yet) a concern?

As for Aerith's feelings, I don't know. Obviously, she likes Cloud. But does she like Soldier!Cloud? Does she like the Zack parts in Cloud? Does she like Cloud parts in Cloud? Can she even say which parts are Cloud parts? Or what about Tifa whom Cloud obviously has a thing for and Aerith adores herself? If you think about the situation she's in, it's no wonder she's confused. But that's just my two cents.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Thank you!

From the rough translation, I would say that platonic like can definitely be included here as she's talking about the many different forms of liking someone a person can feel and isn't sure where her feelings land on the spectrum.

Oh yeah I agree with that. I just don't think she ACTUALLY feels platonically if that makes sense. She is just questioning her feelings. Which are romantic but she isn't sure how to define them.

But I personally saw this idea of different likes as comparison of feelings between Cloud and Zack which would likely be koi vs re'nai.

Hope that is clearer.

 

[Yoru]

I didn't take the English line that way. Because that line is a comparison to Traces of Two Pasts. "The special kind of suki that ties up your heart" is love. First love. So I took it as the difference between a crush and something deeper.

Thing is, if we're really taking the comparison with Traces of Two Pasts, her like/love seems to be even less powerful that CA would like.

The fact this line is used for Tifa and how she has no hesitation about it. She knows the sort of like she feels and how she wants to be with Cloud forever vs Aerith doubting and not being sure about it, makes Aerith's "like" seem less valuable in a way, if you see what I mean.

 

[Rin]

Oh yeah I agree with that. I just don't think she ACTUALLY feels platonically if that makes sense. She is just questioning her feelings. Which are romantic but she isn't sure how to define them.

But I personally saw this idea of different likes as comparison of feelings between Cloud and Zack which would likely be koi vs re'nai.

Hope that is clearer.

Ah, that makes sense and I can agree with that.
I'm not arguing that Aerith feels platonically toward Cloud and that's what she came to realize at the end, just that she's wondering if she did confuse platonic feelings with romantic ones (and she still doesn't have that answer by the end of their date).

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Thing is, if we're really taking the comparison with Traces of Two Pasts, her like/love seems to be even less powerful that CA would like.

The fact this line is used for Tifa and how she has no hesitation about it. She knows the sort of like she feels and how she wants to be with Cloud forever vs Aerith doubting and not being sure about it, makes Aerith's "like" seem less valuable in a way, if you see what I mean.

Yeah and that is exactly what I was pointing out when I said wishy washy. It's an "I like you" but not a sure one. Compared to LS white use of koibito which was more sure and even compared to saying "suki ni naranaide"(dont fall in love with me" . In comparison so my guess is to emphasize the conflict of emotions and how she isn't sure.

 

[overheat28]

I hope so after all those "Cope harder" and "Zack is getting cucked" comments i have gotten on youtube comment sections.

It would be really sweet if in the end Zack bros are the ones who are getting the last laugh.

As a fellow Zackbro, I only understand your doubts too well. I myself still vacillate between dooming and hope on a near daily basis. I almost tossed my controller when Marlene spouted her crap, lol. But more than anything, the sheer certainty of hardcore Cleriths always makes me think I am being gaslighted tbh. The way they read the game and the way I did are not compatible at all, so someone has to be wrong. I honestly question if it's me, sometimes. They are quite nasty about it too - "Zack got cucked, lmao" is horrible to hear even if it's almost certainly not true.

Ultimately, it irks me they put Zack on the cover, hyped him in the interviews and then gave him an hour screentime tops in a 100 hr game. That was some high level bs from Square and I'm not sure I can ever trust them fully again as a Zack fan. They don't actually seem to know what to do with him, or they did and reversed course. I still feel they cut gameplay sections otherwise why are his combat mechanics developed to this extent? It doesn't make sense unless content was cut. It's sad because he's really fun to play.

But dooming aside, I think they really are setting up Zack and Aerith. I don't think they would give him the setup he received to break him like that in the end. It's abundantly clear he's only here for Aerith and the contrast with how Cloud treats her and how Zack is willing to go to hell and back for her without the slightest hesitation is quite clear. You dont show hands touching across the lifestream without reason, it is massive if you think about it. And thats the thing - because of his very limited screentime, by definition Zack does something extraordinary everytime he shows up. He is quite single minded in his insanity (i think its fair to call him insane, in a good way). I think we can look forward to having the last laugh in 3 years.

 

[SilverSisu]

Oh yeah I agree with that. I just don't think she ACTUALLY feels platonically if that makes sense. She is just questioning her feelings. Which are romantic but she isn't sure how to define them.

But I personally saw this idea of different likes as comparison of feelings between Cloud and Zack which would likely be koi vs re'nai.

Hope that is clearer.

Is re'nai stronger feeling than koi?

 

[nars305]

But dooming aside, I think they really are setting up Zack and Aerith. I don't think they would give him the setup he received to break him like that in the end.

Yeah it would be the dumbest thing ever and make me question what was the point of “bringing him back to life”. Just leave him dead.

 

[SilverSisu]

As a fellow Zackbro, I only understand your doubts too well. I myself still vacillate between dooming and hope on a near daily basis. I almost tossed my controller when Marlene spouted her crap, lol. But more than anything, the sheer certainty of hardcore Cleriths always makes me think I am being gaslighted tbh. The way they read the game and the way I did are not compatible at all, so someone has to be wrong. I honestly question if it's me, sometimes. They are quite nasty about it too - "Zack got cucked, lmao" is horrible to hear even if it's almost certainly not true.

Ultimately, it irks me they put Zack on the cover, hyped him in the interviews and then gave him an hour screentime tops in a 100 hr game. That was some high level bs from Square and I'm not sure I can ever trust them fully again as a Zack fan. They don't actually seem to know what to do with him, or they did and reversed course. I still feel they cut gameplay sections otherwise why are his combat mechanics developed to this extent? It doesn't make sense unless content was cut. It's sad because he's really fun to play.

But dooming aside, I think they really are setting up Zack and Aerith. I don't think they would give him the setup he received to break him like that in the end. It's abundantly clear he's only here for Aerith and the contrast with how Cloud treats her and how Zack is willing to go to hell and back for her without the slightest hesitation is quite clear. You dont show hands touching across the lifestream without reason, it is massive if you think about it. And thats the thing - because of his very limited screentime, by definition Zack does something extraordinary everytime he shows up. He is quite single minded in his insanity (i think its fair to call him insane, in a good way). I think we can look forward to having the last laugh in 3 years.

Well said. Exactly my thoughts!

I'll be pissed if Zack doesn't get a major role in part 3 and lots of moments with Aerith. They need to compensate the lack of their part 2 moments.

 

[eleamaya]

I need to repeat my previous post.

COLW is from Aerith's POV and Nojima said while writing On The Way to A Smile, he has to become the character (I guess similar to 1st POV) than letting his own opinion about it (similar to 3rd POV when author is the God who knows everything). So, Nojima never state Cloud & Aerith are lovers. Instead, he wrote Aerith's feelings towards Cloud is "yuujin de ari, koibito de ari". "De ari" mean "as well as" so she treasure friendship and being in love with Cloud equally. A harsh translation would be just "she loves him as well as a friend" but context make it "he's a friend--more than a friend, for she had loved". It fits her personality who treasure every moment, not only treasuring her romantic feelings for Cloud despite unrequited, but also the friendship Cloud gave her since they first met.

Koi (恋) is basically "being in love", people use "suki" when expressing it. It's more selfish, you're the center who desire or want someone to be your lover (koibito) even though that person doesn't feel the same. "Ai" (愛) is the next level, the person you love is the center---an "I love you" in devotion, selfless, giving more than just wanting, only happen when you've been in relationship or marriage, expressing more in "action" than words. Though, "ai" can be used in any kind of love; familial and platonic, even to your pet! Nomura said everyone in the party has love (ai) to Aerith. And "suki" --just like "ai"-- can be romantic or not depends on context. So "suki" is light, while "ai" is deeper or serious,

This is example of using "liking" to express "romantic feelings" from Suzuken and Maaya's conversation in radio show special about Gundam Seed Destiny (2004).

Suzuken: I like your Lunamaria. (Gundam Seed character played by Maaya) Maaya: I like Shinn (Gundam Seed character played by Suzuken), too. Mmm... actually I like you since we first met. Suzuken: Whoa....! Like? Like (romantic) love? (Suki? Suki ga koi?)

Because "suki" here can mean "I like your performance" or "I like your character" so Suzuken ask if this "suki" is "koi" type of like. Thanks to that, they were dating afterward, so Zack & Aerith since Advent Children (2005) has been always voiced by real couple hahaha.

So, I dont think it's contradictive or retconning what type of like she has with Cloud because it's already different from Zack.
Because......

Nojima said in CCFF7 Ultimania interview section, that he called Zack & Aerith as "ren'ai". "Ren'ai" is written in kanji "koi + ai" (恋愛) and it means story/poem/genre/song of romance, mutually in love, or in romantic relationship. "Ren'ai" is also used for broad type of romance, from a beginning that is just crush (koi) to unconditional (ai). Though, he also added they're still young, and since he couldn't have much space to build their love story (I guess it's because of PSP UMD limitation that SE rejected the devs' proposal for having two disks), so he made them fall in love at the first sight. By this description, Zack & Aerith is never friends growing up to be lovers, their relationship has always been lovers or first love (初恋) by nature. So, it's still related to Aerith never experiencing a real friendship till she meets Cloud, Tifa, and the others as they set a journey together.

If Zack & Aerith reunited, by nature of their relationship, they're lost lovers finding each others. Rejection would make them over, not turning to platonic friends they never be. I doubt Zack is always by her side because they're just friends.


EDIT to add this:

Like "Daisuki" is more romantically coded than "Suki desu" for example because you can say the latter to your friend but you'd never say the former to them unless you were straight up confessing romantic feelings.

Zack say "daisuki" to Angeal when he hugged him as Angeal promoted Zack to first Class.
Hamaguchi, perhaps half joking, also say Sephiroth "daisuki" Cloud. (this is in interview video of him answering 50 questions so quick)

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Is re'nai stronger than koi?

I don't know if I'd say stronger? Different? Yeah. I think a better word is Deeper.
Koi is like longing for someone. Like infatuation in love and the honeymoon phase in the beginning when you are really into someone? Renai is similar but more about wanting to be in a relationship? And described as the transition from koi to ai which is true love that is unconditional. So the next step up?

Elemaya's post basically explained it. It's the next stage.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah it would be the dumbest thing ever and make me question what was the point of “bringing him back to life”. Just leave him dead.

People read the whole situation the wrong way.

Rebirth is not the game cucking Zack and making fun of him. It's the game where Zack's love for Aerith knows no limit. Marlene scene is not here to confess Aerith feelings to Cloud. It's here to show how Zack will ALWAYS prioritize Aerith.

"The woman I love may have forgotten me and is loving someone else ? Someone whom life is between my own hands ?" And what Zack is doing the very next scene ? He's going to Hojo to save Cloud. Because he's been told he'll be the one to save Aerith

All of this is just to doubling down on Zack being the PERFECT boyfriend. Because they know how the Cult Clerith talked shit about him. It's the dev telling "See ? That's why everyone loves Zack and why he'll be the perfect match for our flower girl"