SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I am pretty sure Aerith's "This isn't about me this is about saving the planet and you." Is NOT about recovering his true self. I don't think that's what the the translator is trying imply at all.

I still think it's wrong, because this is exactly what fans have been equating it to: the white materia is going to help with Cloud's identity trouble.

See, that's where I step in to say it's wrong: because they see this is about the white materia, and thus, they think the white materia has a role to play, which is logical. But I have read someone saying Cloud and Tifa will go into the materia to save Cloud (???). I wish I was kidding but this is the level of the fandom, so translators have to be very wary about what they change and how they change it.

Aerith here is "saving" Cloud from his depression in Advent Children. She's giving him the closure regarding his guilt. "I saved her, she saved me, round and round it goes". This connection is in her resolution also and the line "Whatever happens don't blame yourself." In Japanese she literally says "Guilt be gone."

"Whatever happens don't blame yourself" is good enough to make the reference to AC. A lot of players aren't aware of AC, so that will click with them later on when Aerith dies and I think it's ill fitting to put it instead in a scene that has nothing to do with it.

Aerith here is "saving" Cloud from his depression in Advent Children. She's giving him the closure regarding his guilt. "I saved her, she saved me, round and round it goes". This connection is in her resolution also and the line "Whatever happens don't blame yourself." In Japanese she literally says "Guilt be gone."

But if you do that now, then there is no AC. And we know there will be an AC regardless. So for this Aerith to try to offset the blow, I agree with it, just not the way it was done. It's not there in French and I got it still because I understood the reference when she pushes him away in the portal. And it's way less confusing for people to not link her words to the materia.

@MelodicEnigma this is the way FFVII is structured: Aerith is the heroine of the external plot, and Tifa the heroine of the internal plot. Does that mean that Aerith doesn't want to help Cloud? No, but she cannot. Does that mean that Tifa doesn't want to save the world? No, but she cannot (at least not directly). You cannot have them switch their roles, period. Both women help him in AC but that's another story, right now I am focusing on the FFVII OG story and what it tells; no matter how much Aerith wants to help Cloud, she can only tell him to take care of himself. She wants to take on Sephiroth because she thinks she can. Because the ToA has given her answers, and in FFVIIR, she got her materia back.

Her intent on saving the planet is HUGE. I always thought so, while it's shaky at best before ToA, in ToA everything changes for her. We don't know what she hears, but she took decisions based on this. I feel that her realisation that she was "the last one", "alone" is really missing from Rebirth; to me it's one of the things they botched with her. But the weight of her ancestry really weighs in once she is connected with the Planet, in a way we truly don't get yet. It's her arc of being selfish to selfless (because yes, Aerith is a selfish character, which is ok too in my eyes, but she definitely hurt Tifa in the process).

In the same breath, Tifa's intent to save Cloud is HUGE, so much that she decides to abandon the mission for him, even if it means dying with him. It's her arc, going from selfless to putting boundaries and finally accepting to be selfish.

To me the fact that they both work to save the planet and both work to protect Cloud doesn't offset that at all. It's just how it is, their primary role without all the chichis as we say in French. It's absolutely not an error to see it this way because it is their roles.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

To me the fact that they both work to save the planet and both work to protect Cloud doesn't offset that at all. It's just how it is, their primary role without all the chichis as we say in French. It's absolutely not an error to see it this way because it is their roles.

Exactly, this something that they do. Hence what I've been saying, over and over, which is that then logically, that line has nothing to do with Cloud's Identity and the Lifestream sequence. The only fans who are taking it that way are extreme CAs and possibly you, though you have every available avenue NOT to. To just say, "that's not what it's about, ya'll are trippin', anyway", and it's just done. You're good fam, I promise it can be let go and be fine for any normal ENG speaker who is able to read a scene correctly, not a rabid CA fan trying to convince themselves of something. So when you're looking at how it functions within the containment of the scene, it VERY directly has nothing to do with Cloud's Identity issue because that is LITERALLY not what the scene is about. What we're dealing with here is an idea that is forcing a commentary where it doesn't belong, so we just shouldn't entertain that as if we're agreeing that it's the functionality.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

still think it's wrong, because this is exactly what fans have been equating it to: the white materia is going to help with Cloud's identity trouble.

See, that's where I step in to say it's wrong: because they see this is about the white materia, and thus, they think the white materia has a role to play, which is logical. But I have read someone saying Cloud and Tifa will go into the materia to save Cloud (???). I wish I was kidding but this is the level of the fandom, so translators have to be very wary about what they change and how they change it.

I honestly think the translators did not think at all that's what the fans would equate it to. I didn't even think that way myself when I first heard it. Saving Cloud doesn't mean "saving his true self after all in every context."
So I don't think the translators were thinking it was connected at all to the Lifestream or that's where people's minds would go.

Also what @MelodicEnigma is saying is that Aerith is not making a choice of Cloud vs. the world. She's saving the world which Cloud is part of. And that is basically what she did in OG. She was never trying to save his true self she was trying to save his life. And she was facing Sephiroth in his place so he avoids another chance to get controlled.

This doesn't mean she gains Tifa's role. It's not interchangeable.

And he's saying that Tifa does choose to save Cloud over saving the world.

That's Tifa's thing though. Separate from Aerith. Aerith doesn't do the opposite here. She just helps Cloud in a different way.
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"Both women help him in AC but that's another story, right now I am focusing on the FFVII OG story and what it tells; no matter how much Aerith wants to help Cloud, she can only tell him to take care of himself."

She can't help him get his true self back yes. But it's not like because of this Aerith can't help Cloud literally at all ever with anything else. She can definitely help him survive and she did when she stopped the Meteor from hitting the planet. And she was trying to help him suffer less by giving Sephiroth less of a chance to control him.

Therefore the word save doesn't automatically mean "save him by finding his true self." And I don't think the translator even thought anyone would think that way. It could be as simple as save him from the giant meteor in the sky. Save him from Geostigma. Or save him from depression.
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Quote: "Whatever happens don't blame yourself" is good enough to make the reference to AC. A lot of players aren't aware of AC, so that will click with them later on when Aerith dies and I think it's ill fitting to put it instead in a scene that has nothing to do with it."

The Japanese phrasing she uses is like someone saying "Evil be gone" which "Don't blame yourself" is not enough to convey this hence they added more to it. That "Guilt be gone" is from the Japanese in the same scene as "saving the world and you" in English. It's like a few seconds apart. "This materia will surely save the world" after "Guilt be gone." All the English did was put emphasis on it.

When she hugs him before the white materia is a reference to AC "I never blamed you". So it does have everything to do with it. It's in the Japanese too. "Saving the world and you" just makes it more obvious that what she's saying about not blaming himself is connected to her giving him the materia. It's the reason she's giving him the white materia this time.

As for Advent Children not happening, this is just her way of helping him avoid guilt. Not to save his true self. Will it work? Maybe not if we end up in AC. But this is her way of helping.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The only fans who are taking it that way are extreme CAs and possibly you, though you have every available avenue NOT to. To just say, "that's not what it's about, ya'll are trippin', anyway", and it's just done. You're good fam, I promise it can be let go and be fine for any normal ENG speaker who is able to read a scene correctly, not a rabid CA fan trying to convince themselves of something.

I honestly think the translators did not think at all that's what the fans would equate it to.

And just to repeat: this is the same fandom that took Sephiroth's gaslighting that Tifa isn't real to mean that Tifa is literally a Jenova clone.

At some point, you just need to stop listening to fan interpretations. The story will still play out the way it will, regardless of how they interpret it.

 

[Eerie]

The only fans who are taking it that way are extreme CAs and possibly you

No, it's definitely not me (because I play in French and they have translated correctly), but it's rampant in fandom now. This is the times we live in. And no it's not CAs only, I've seen gen fans who favoured CT and never played the OG who interpreted it that way. So what do we do now?


(I really wish you'd understand the points I make, it's because I've watched random people theorising, who are supposedly not CAs, the only CAs I read are here so... and even if I read what they write, I wouldn't speak about their arguments at all because there's nothing to talk about; stop telling me I read their arguments and use them that way, or conflate me with them thank you, I'm going to feel offended for real).

Also what @MelodicEnigma is saying is that Aerith is not making a choice of Cloud vs. the world. She's saving the world which Cloud is part of. And that is basically what she did in OG. She was never trying to save his true self she was trying to save his life. And she was facing Sephiroth in his place so he avoids another chance to get controlled.

And that's still a stretch to say this while giving the white materia. I'm sorry but it adds a LOT of confusion where there shouldn't be any. Really that's why I'm against it. They have Tifa saying she will save Cloud and they didn't add "and the world", despite the fact that saving him saves the world. The same way, they didn't need to have Aerith add "and you" because again the idea is already carried in the next scene. Now a lot of fans, and I don't mean CAs because I DO NOT READ THEM, think that the materia is going to help in some way. This is why a lot of theorycrafters (lol) think Aerith is going to be in the LSS. We are THERE because of this single sentence. As I said, these two sentence show the girls' intent and having Aerith implying the white materia will save him is also a way to shit on Tifa's role.

Also you may not know, but an EN translator for FFVIIR openly said in twitter that he added some stuff just for shit and giggles. So yeah I'm really wary with the EN translation because SE is really not careful enough with it and that's a shame.

At some point, you just need to stop listening to fan interpretations. The story will still play out the way it will, regardless of how they interpret it.

I agree but the way everything is presented also leads to these bad interpretations. It's not only the fans. It's also SE's fault. When you lose the meaning, interpreting correctly is really hard.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I agree but the way everything is presented also leads to these bad interpretations. It's not only the fans. It's also SE's fault. When you lose the meaning, interpreting correctly is really hard.

I figured you were talking about the theorycrafters.

And I do understand your point about the girls' roles, and I even agree. But at the same time, I'm like, "But it's theorycrafters", lmao. I mean, the few I watched were a lot like shippers in the way that they could take isolated lines -- see Tifa and Jenova Clone "theory" -- and spin an entire fanfiction out of it. Except the theorycrafters call it theory, while shippers would just go write a fanfiction about it. To be honest, I've noticed that a lot of posts that get passed off as "meta" or "theory" are just fanfiction under a "more serious name".

If theorycrafters actually had a comprehensive understanding and knowledge of FF7, they'd know that Aerith won't be in the LSS scene -- regardless of what her character might say or what her words might imply in isolation.

Like, "Tender feelings that no one can ever know except Tifa" isn't exactly a group project.

Though it might be comedy gold for everyone to find out that Cloud's head is literally all Tifa, all the time.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Now a lot of fans, and I don't mean CAs because I DO NOT READ THEM, think that the materia is going to help in some way. This is why a lot of theorycrafters (lol) think Aerith is going to be in the LSS. We are THERE because of this single sentence. As I said, these two sentence show the girls' intent and having Aerith implying the white materia will save him is also a way to shit on Tifa's role.

Here's the thing though at no point are the translators implying that. Maybe the theory crafters are but they're separate from the translators. You're saying you have an issue with how it comes across right? That people think it says that because of the phrasing of the sentence. That because the word save was used with "and you" they are now misunderstanding. But using the word save is really just not enough for someone to think this means his true self. Like where are they getting that information?

I really want to know where did we ever establish that the word "save" in every case means "saving his true self." ?

If anything my thoughts would jump to the materia saving his literal life from Meteor because Holy's job is to stop Meteor. There's no indication in English of whatever those theory people are discussing.
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And I understand you're frustrated with the theorycrafters but is that really the translators fault that they didn't think about something that has really has no basis? How were they ever going to predict that?

Their brain just doesn't work that way. They probably never even imagined it.
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Also as an aside another possible explanation: It could also be because they wanted to match lip movements with dubbing that they added "and you" over her "sekai wo sukuu". In that case that change could be the decision of the voice over dub director and not even the translators. Maybe this is what happened.

But I still think it's obvious here she's saying this situation of giving him the materia to her personally is about saving the world but also about her chance to help him. Whether with his guilt or saving his literal life from Meteor.

It doesn't literally mean in the literal sense that the materia is the literal key to saving his soul.

And I honestly still don't understand how anyone could get to this conclusion from that? And unless there's some secret lore where the materia can somehow put people's psyches together the translators also just couldn't possibly reach this conclusion either. Much less could they think others would.

How can they be careful and prepare for something that never even occurred to them?

So you're saying well they should have thought about how it sounds to the fans and how fans would twist it to avoid confusion, right?

But honestly how would they have thought about it? That idea is just so weird and not predictable. To translators it shouldn't be confusing it the first place. And many of them are really not aware of what theory crafters are saying they're just people doing a job.
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When I saw people saying that that's what that means I thought there must be some lore connection I missed. But there isn't. So now I'm more confused.

Are you telling me these theory people automatically assume the word "save" is only ever used in the context of saving him in the Lifestream? So this sentence has to automatically mean that?Why? In terms of just language that literally doesn't make sense.

Earlier on in Remake Cloud already said "I saved her. She saved me. I'll save her again." That's the Japanese. In English it was translated as "I saved her. She saved me. Round and round it goes." Did they also assume back then that this meant Aerith saved Cloud in the Lifestream? Just because the word "saved" is used?

Because that would also be a very weird conclusion.

Also you may not know, but an EN translator for FFVIIR openly said in twitter that he added some stuff just for shit and giggles. So yeah I'm really wary with the EN translation because SE is really not careful enough with it and that's a shame.

Was it the person talking about stuff like Limit Breaks? I really don't know much more because that's around the time I abandoned most social media. But I remember something about adding something Aerith and Barret say in the battle or the way the move is named. A lot of localizers put Easter eggs or make puns and add silly things in English in areas where it doesn't make much difference. It's very common. FF14 does this all the time with item descriptions the item descriptions in English are jokes but regular descriptions in Japanese. Certain dialogue of NPCs that aren't lore important are also jokes etc. But that's very different from actual lore or story beats. Did that person also change important lore points? Or were they talking about jokes they added?
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I think the best explanation for where "and you" came from is as I said. They were just trying to translate "guilt be gone". And this took them several sentences instead of one.

Another alternative explanation is she's talking about saving the world and him because he's literally part of the world. And that puts emphasis on how this is personal. But I still think either way giving him the Materia is her way of helping him like she wanted to in COWL.
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I'm not saying you are wrong to be frustrated. I understand being frustrated by all these weird conclusions these theories make. But I really don't think the translation is why they're making it. I think they have a bias to favor their theory and are using anything to make their theory sound right. I really think if that sentence wasn't there at all they would still say the same thing but find something else to support it for the sake of their theory. But the English doesn't actually support it. Nor does it say what they say it does. And I don't think the translators are trying to diminish Tifa's role.
I honestly don't think that even occurred to them that anyone would use this line for that.

As for how careful SE is being we literally don't have that information. Maybe they're double checking everything and did not think the words "and you" would be an issue. Or maybe they left the translators on their own for the most part. Or maybe it was the editor that added "and you" or the voice dub director or the Quality Assurance director. We have no way of knowing.

Edit: I wrote that wrong: She says Guilt be gone/disappear
"Kiero saiyaku" before HUGGING him not pushing him.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

No, it's definitely not me (because I play in French and they have translated correctly), but it's rampant in fandom now. This is the times we live in. And no it's not CAs only, I've seen gen fans who favoured CT and never played the OG who interpreted it that way. So what do we do now?


(I really wish you'd understand the points I make, it's because I've watched random people theorising, who are supposedly not CAs, the only CAs I read are here so... and even if I read what they write, I wouldn't speak about their arguments at all because there's nothing to talk about; stop telling me I read their arguments and use them that way, or conflate me with them thank you, I'm going to feel offended for real).

I'd say the same thing I've said on repeat now—that's not what the line means or indicates. lol I've explained this from every angle I can. I will confidently say that this is NOT the normal conclusion to draw from that scene, and is hardly representative of the average fan's comprehension of it. I guarantee it. I'm not saying this just because of who I've seen, I'm saying it because of how that conclusion doesn't line up with all sequences in the story at this point and even beyond. So on average, it's just not likely to be a vast interpretation used. There's so much going on after the church scene too. Aerith in the forest taking the White Materia's energy to confront Sephiroth and leaving Cloud with an empty materia is an example. She literally just took the power for what she just said—to stop Sephiroth. Nothing to do with Cloud's True Self, just like the church scene. I'm not going to pretend even 10% of the fans who played this in ENG are sticking hard to this conclusion after finishing the game. I'd imagine the average player doesn't see that line as something to theorize about—they just move on as the scene does.

The only way I could see your point being a valid read on the scene is if Cloud himself honed in on the line by responding "And me? What do you mean?"—from a writing perspective, that kind of emphasis shifts the focus enough to give weight to and question Aerith's line (as Cloud literally is). If it did happen, it'd be both the ENG and JPN as we're dealing a plot thing at that point. None of this happened, of course. I don't imagine a vast majority of players are following this idea, by saying "And you?! What do you mean Aerith?!" in the middle of watching the scene, there isn't naturally enough emphasis to Aerith's line to trigger that response normally for the average fan, not to mention like I said, the forest scene takes them further from this.

So, I don't really care who is saying it to be honest—no matter where the point is coming from, I refuse to use an illogical conclusion as the basis of understanding for the material, because in this situation, the material isn't favoring that conclusion. That's part of what makes it illogical. People being wrong does not necessarily speak on the nature of the context. For example, I don't care how many CAs say Cloud is trying to kill himself so he can reunite with Aerith in AC—they don't change what actually was written from a logical standpoint. That comes first in saying what is being added or not being added, expressed or not expressed. This is a fandom issue, not the material's issue. And I guarantee the small amount of people saying this aren't able to present a valid point as to why this conclusion is more viable.

I don't mean to offend, but I am confused why you're finding the extreme need to defend a perspective that I'd honestly think you'd have every right to call out as wrong, or at the very least to call THAT conclusion a stretch. Which is what a person's response to any theory crafter should be, instead of what feels like justifying the take.

 

[Skilganon]

I do see a lot of theorybros, who, after a lengthy video about what may happen in part 3, will make some suggestion like, "More characters may be in the LSS". However, I don't think it's because of any particular line, they say this because they are trying to appear neutral from a shipping perspective. We're at the point where you can't even look forward to canon Cloud and Tifa scenes in neutral spaces without CA shippers chiming in with some out-of-left-field suggestions. The idea of Cloud and Tifa having this very emotionally intimate moment alone, just the two of them, and it's the culminating moment of Cloud's identity struggle, just seems too definitive for the LTD as it's still waged today. It's part of this undying notion that the developers intend for you to "choose who Cloud loves", that shipping is inherently toxic and there is no canon relationship and it's all up to the player.

It's a set of cultural norms that have formed to insulate the LTD discourse from anything else FF7 related.

The conception of 'character roles' comes from the viewpoint of someone who's already played the OG and expects the same story beats. It's hard not to look at the story as a static thing, but the narrative has a beggining, middle, and end. Cloud's identity becomes the central mystery of the game, and by extension his relationships with all his comrades. Information about Cloud is doled out through his interactions with other characters. We aren't supposed to know right from the beginning what 'roles' characters will play. There are deliberate misdirections, even in the romantic subplots.

Throughout Remake and Rebirth, Aerith is trying to help Cloud remember his past, similar to Tifa. Right up until the skywheel date, when she says, "I'm trying so hard to find you." So I wouldn't fault any new player from thinking that Aerith would save Cloud's identity at some point. That's just a consequence of the story being centered on a mystery. Eventually some people are going to be right and others wrong. At the end of Rebirth, the devs want new players to wonder how Cloud is going to be healed, how this whole mystery is going to be resolved. It's weird to get hung up on a single line when we know this story already uses deliberate misdirection.

It's also a shame that the LTD causes so many people to become utterly spoiled on story events of which they have no proper context, because they recieve the information second-hand from shippers who have agendas. So many people wade into these arguments when they have an incomplete view of the story.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Throughout Remake and Rebirth, Aerith is trying to help Cloud remember his past, similar to Tifa. Right up until the skywheel date, when she says, "I'm trying so hard to find you." So I wouldn't fault any new player from thinking that Aerith would save Cloud's identity at some point. That's just a consequence of the story being centered on a mystery. Eventually some people are going to be right and others wrong.
At the end of Rebirth, the devs want new players to wonder how Cloud is going to be healed, how this whole mystery is going to be resolved.

Okay I kind of understand that. But we're talking about the translation of a scene. I don't understand how the translators were supposed to somehow expect that this translation of "save the world and you" would lead to that conclusion?

And I also don't understand where the theory crafters got it either. Yes she says she's trying to find him but at zero point is it ever established that the white materia is how she intends to do it?

At zero point is the white materia established to have anything to do with anything except stopping Meteor either.

So if someone did think oh she is giving him the white materia to save him. Wouldn't they assume oh to save him from Meteor?
WHERE are we getting to save his true self?

It's weird to get hung up on a single line when we know this story already uses deliberate misdirection.

Oh I definitely agree. And if people are using this line for that conclusion it tells me they're trying to get anything to support their theory. Not because the translators really gave them anything to work with.
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And I have to point this out and I think it's very important to how we look at translations in general: The intention of the translators is just to do their job and translate what they get. They do what they're told. Some get creative. But they need to be allowed to. What you see the translation do is what their bosses literally let them do. I can't emphasize this enough.
They're not thinking like fans are about these lines.

There is definitely this idea out there that a lot of choices in English are done on purpose to diminish CT somehow.
But it was the English translation team that translated the lyrics for Midgar Blues in English. They wrote "I left my true love behind." Instead of "Mako city blues" which is what that line is in Japanese. Why would they even do that if the translation team in EN is somehow against CT or wants to hide it? Clearly they're not against CT.

So their choices in translation aren't being made to diminish CT either. They're just translating like normal in the moment. Could it be better at times, yes. Do I think transcreation is always the best practice for everything? No. Do I think translators should consider how fans will react to their translations? I do think to some extent, yes they should be more aware how a change can comes across. I agree.
But I'm also sure they're not thinking of all the crazy things people come up with to twist their translations. Because a lot of those are just weird conclusions that maybe should be ignored. And I don't think they should be blamed for that either.

And I keep saying a lot of these misunderstandings don't come from the translation anyway but by people taking anything to misunderstand. Also from the devs constantly adding misdirection which is just as prevalent in the Japanese. But I'm not sure this particular scene even counts as misdirection.

Edit: Elaboration. Added a point.

 

[Eerie]

@Ryeleigh I personally call them AO3bros at this point because yes I agree, most of what they spout is fanfiction level. But they feel important because SE is giving them special treatment (talking about them, inviting them to events…). And because of this, fans give them more importance than what they should have. Again, SE’s PR is quite terrible.

Also as an aside another possible explanation: It could also be because they wanted to match lip movements with dubbing that they added "and you" over her "sekai wo sukuu". In that case that change could be the decision of the voice over dub director and not even the translators. Maybe this is what happened.

They have a special technology they are using for EN that makes the lips match what the VA is saying, so that’s a no. It’s not the case in other languages such as FR and DE.

And I don't think the translators are trying to diminish Tifa's role.

Well sometimes I do have to wonder, but then again Aerith gets the same treatment, especially in Rebirth.

Edit: I wrote that wrong: She says Guilt be gone/disappear
"Kiero saiyaku" before HUGGING him not pushing him.

Oh that’s interesting I’ll have to think about it actually!

Yes she says she's trying to find him but at zero point is it ever established that the white materia is how she intends to do it?

Of course not but it looks like this meaning is added because of how this sentence is phrased! I can tell you that new players took it that way without thinking because she is talking about the white materia’s power which we know nothing about at that point in game! So they think it’s part of its power and it’s natural because it’s the first time its power is explained.

At zero point is the white materia established to have anything to do with anything except stopping Meteor either.

See above! First time we get an explanation about its power, look at how its phrased, understand that we just got out of an event where Cloud was being extra creepy and this is why people will equate it to saving Cloud’s psyche.

@Skilganon at this point I am persuaded they are all secret CA shippers: their fave is Aerith and it shows.

 

[Ryeleigh]

@Ryeleigh I personally call them AO3bros at this point because yes I agree, most of what they spout is fanfiction level. But they feel important because SE is giving them special treatment (talking about them, inviting them to events…). And because of this, fans give them more importance than what they should have. Again, SE’s PR is quite terrible.

I guess in a way it makes sense? Theoretically, they'd have a wider reach since most of them are YouTubers, and more general audiences since they're posting "theories" (lol).

And the devs did partially write the games in a way that would generate theories. Whether that was actually for the good of the story and characters or not is another discussion, though.

 

[Eerie]

Oh I agree, but I think really 99µ of their theories are taken as gold by viewers when... yeah no. It's like people can't think by themselves. Most of them don't have such a huge reach either - the only one who does is Max, truly. They also have invited a CA who is always getting in fights with CTs and I'm like "is this really the kind of person you want to push on the front?"

 

[Ryeleigh]

Oh I agree, but I think really 99µ of their theories are taken as gold by viewers when... yeah no. It's like people can't think by themselves. Most of them don't have such a huge reach either - the only one who does is Max, truly. They also have invited a CA who is always getting in fights with CTs and I'm like "is this really the kind of person you want to push on the front?"

Well, I have seen others complain that SE has terrible PR. xD Who knows what they're actually thinking?

 

[Skilganon]

And the devs did partially write the games in a way that would generate theories. Whether that was actually for the good of the story and characters or not is another discussion, though.

100%. The devs have purposely given people a reason to think certain story beats will be different, through the introduction of Fate and multiple timelines. They want fans to think "anything can happen". They've also admitted they've done this to keep people talking. If that is the only reason then the ending is bound to be disappointing.

I'm hoping the meta-textual elements will be paid off in a satisfying way. SE have to walk a tightrope. Either the story is massively changed, which will piss off fans, or the story remains largely unchanged, which will piss off people who thought the multiverse was going somewhere. If the story simply ends more or less like the OG, this whole project will be a case of profoundly cheap fan-baiting.

 

[Nancy]

Oh while I'm at it, ZA reunion: before or after the LSS? Which one is most likely and why?

I think before the LSS. The interlude to pt3 could be ZA reunion like how Zack had an interlude in rebirth. That why whatever new scenes Nojima or the devs create for Aerith, Zack could be there to lend a helping hand

Though it might be comedy gold for everyone to find out that Cloud's head is literally all Tifa, all the time.

I couldn't help but laugh at your response bc it reminds me of this XD

Either the story is massively changed, which will piss off fans, or the story remains largely unchanged, which will piss off people who thought the multiverse was going somewhere. If the story simply ends more or less like the OG, this whole project will be a case of profoundly cheap fan-baiting.

Considering Kitase wanted a happy ending for the characters, I feel like the ending, some parts will still stay the same as Red and his cubs running to overlook Midgar and some will change. But even if it's different from the ending of the OG, the story it will still link up to ACC

Yes, some fans will be happy about the ending while others will be piss off but the devs can't please everyone

 

[Ryeleigh]

100%. The devs have purposely given people a reason to think certain story beats will be different, through the introduction of Fate and multiple timelines. They want fans to think "anything can happen". They've also admitted they've done this to keep people talking. If that is the only reason then the ending is bound to be disappointing.

I'm hoping the meta-textual elements will be paid off in a satisfying way. SE have to walk a tightrope. Either the story is massively changed, which will piss off fans, or the story remains largely unchanged, which will piss off people who thought the multiverse was going somewhere. If the story simply ends more or less like the OG, this whole project will be a case of profoundly cheap fan-baiting.

To be honest, I'm in the camp that if the devs wanted to add expansions, new scenes, and so on, they could've (and should've) done all that without the Whispers.

Besides, what's even the point of "we wanted to get the fandom talking" if at the same time they're also "we're not changing anything"? xD

 

[Eerie]

through the introduction of Fate

Fate was always a big theme in the OG, just it's not about Aerith's fate, it's about the Planet's fate. And Hamaguchi, while doing some PR for Remake did say we fight for the Planet's fate - literally confirmed what I was thinking for quite some time already. People are focused on Aerith, but she's the tree hiding the forest as we say in French. The theme of fate is heavy in the OG, a lot of NPCs talk about it starting disc 2.

Considering Kitase wanted a happy ending for the characters, I feel like the ending, some parts will still stay the same as Red and his cubs running to overlook Midgar and some will change. But even if it's different from the ending of the OG, the story it will still link up to ACC

I used to feel it would be a little bit of the OTWAS because yes they kept saying it would link up to AC. However, since Kitase had Nomura work on a new ending, that specific sentence hasn't shown up again. Plus in a way, the story already links up to AC.

No, I think the reason why Kitase is so happy is that he got his happy ending XD Which means a post DoC timeskip. Hopefully it is this, so we can all let those characters rest behind us and just feel content as fans.

 

[Skilganon]

To be honest, I'm in the camp that if the devs wanted to add expansions, new scenes, and so on, they could've (and should've) done all that without the Whispers.

1000%. I've been saying this for a while. We're told the Whispers are arbiters of Fate, yet the story has already changed. Chadley exists, Roche exists, some characters act different. The Whispers appear to be quite arbitrary in what they choose to correct.

What bothers me the most is how heavy-handed the concept is, to the point where is doesn't even function as a metaphor.

The ancient Greek tragedies did it the best. Even when the heroes know what's coming, they can't prevent it, because their lives are part of a larger tapestry they cannot hope to fathom. I suppose the devs of FF7 Retrilogy are trying to give this impression, but there's just no subtlety to the execution.

 

[Ryushikaze]

1000%. I've been saying this for a while. We're told the Whispers are arbiters of Fate, yet the story has already changed. Chadley exists, Roche exists, some characters act different. The Whispers appear to be quite arbitrary in what they choose to correct.

What bothers me the most is how heavy-handed the concept is, to the point where is doesn't even function as a metaphor.

The ancient Greek tragedies did it the best. Even when the heroes know what's coming, they can't prevent it, because their lives are part of a larger tapestry they cannot hope to fathom. I suppose the devs of FF7 Retrilogy are trying to give this impression, but there's just no subtlety to the execution.

My take here is that "Fate" doesn't mean "The OG" or anything like that. They're not here to make sure things match the events of the original game because narratively there's no such thing. They're here to make sure events play out according to the vision of the future the planet decided on. It's worth remembering Sephiroth led the party into fighting the Harbinger and is the one trying to defy fate in Rebirth. He's being duplicitous in what fate he wants to defy.

 

[Eerie]

 

[billy22]

Out of curiosity how do users here see the Highwind scene playing out? Will they make a high and low affection version? Will they take it one step further and allow the player to say, hang out with Barret for the night instead of Tifa? etc.

 

[Eerie]

I expect (or rather hope) that we'll follow each member in their quest of searching why they fight, and no, I don't think you can choose your partner because Tifa is Cloud's lover and the scene that happens there reiterate that they can fight because they are by each other's side. I personally wish that we'd see them going from place to place in that last week but eh maybe that is too much. Either way, those hoping for a LA are in for a surprise, as there is no more affection system and I do expect that Cloud and Tifa will be an item by the LSS anyway this time around. Because people have not understood (or refused to) this scene, I've been betting for a long while (since Remake) that they'd get together there. So only an HA HW scene would make sense in this scenario, and I'm pretty confident about it after Rebirth.

 

[Skilganon]

The only people who talk about the Highwind scene that way only do so because they want a 'non-Tifa' option. If there are LA and HA versions, it will probably depend on the amount of sidequests you do for Tifa. If you get her final limit break and weapon, etc. That being said, I firmly believe both LA and HA scenes will be romantic if this is the case. I think it's more likely that LA and HA will not be different scenes per se, but that HA will just have additional dialogue or a longer scene.

On the subject of Fate, if you are talking about the concept in an abstract way, you can apply it to any story. Aerith's fate = Will she die? Planet's fate = Will the meteor destroy the planet? It comes from the sense of inevitability, a feeling that certain events are predestined or unpreventable. In a story, all relevant beats are predestined, but we are invested in how the characters experience such events.

What Retrilogy introduces is different, (F)ate. This is a script for the universe enforced by the entities known as Whispers. We are told directly that certain events are predestined, it's no longer a feeling. And the Whispers themselves seem to possess some kind of Will and the power to resurrect people from the dead(if they aren't supposed to die). But the actions of the Whispers in FF7Remake turn what was once a character-driven plot into a Whisper-driven one.

In FF7 OG, Tifa guilts Cloud into coming on the reactor 5 mission by bringing up the water tower promise. In FF7 Remake, Cloud actually brings up the promise first and offers to come with Tifa, but she declines. Later on, the Whispers intervene to give Jessie an ankle sprane so that Barret is forced to hire Cloud for the mission. Without the intervention of the Whispers, Cloud would not have gone on the reactor 5 mission, why? Why did these events change in the first place to necessitate the intervention of the Whispers?

A similar thing happens when Cloud meets Aerith after falling through the church roof. In the OG, Reno and some troopers simply show up and start asking questions. Cloud and Aerith run to the back of the church, where you have to play the Donkey Kong mini game. In Remake, Cloud and Reno get into a scuffle. Cloud takes out all the troopers and Reno, then attempts to execute him. But before Cloud can swing his blade, the Whispers show up and blow Cloud and Aerith into the back room. So why is Cloud murderous now, to the extent that the Whispers have to prevent him from killing the turk? Reno and the troopers were incapacitated in this new timeline, it would have been easier for them to simply run.

If character decisions are constantly being countered by the Whispers, why should we care about what the characters do?

I'm not opposed to Fate as a storytelling device. If events are predestined, then the story has to revolve around the unexpected way these events unfold. While making character decisions irrelevant is an unexpected choice, it also results in a poorer story.

For example, Aerith leaving the party after the Temple of the Ancients because she believes she is the only one who can prevent Meteor and stop Sephiroth, and also because Cloud is mentally compromised, is a better story than what we get in Rebirth. Aerith leaves the party for similar reasons, but there's an undercurrent that she knows she is going to die. The Whispers have to separate Aerith from the party with a mysterious mist. There is overall a sense that it has to happen. But why? Why does Aerith's death have to be framed as a noble sacrifice ordained by the planet? Why can't she just die as a result of characters' decisions? Let the player wonder if it was ordained by the planet.

We can go all theory-crazy and say that everything will be revealed in part 3, Remake Cloud has OG Cloud's memories, he's going to become omni-Cloud, this is why he acts different, etc. I find this sort of story-telling convoluted and pointless. Why compromise a perfectly good story? Many critics have framed this approach as being some kind of clever commentary on the nature of videogame remakes, but it feels to me like the devs are playing some elaborate game of peek-a-boo.

 

[Premium Heart]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that HA is not only referenced in multiple Ultimanias, but that LA is not referenced in any of them. I think they will officially establish HA as the canon version.