SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

So rewatching lifestream OG. What does Tifa mean she heard Cloud calling out to her. When she is getting overwhelmed by the voices?

Do you mean the UTH part? I never understood in the LS scene when Tifa is in black what she is hearing and why she says “I would never do that” or something and starts running.

Edit:

This part I was confused about too:

 

[Yoru]

Do you mean the UTH part? I never understood in the LS scene when Tifa is in black what she is hearing and why she says “I would never do that” or something and starts running.

Edit:

This part I was confused about too:


View attachment 16244View attachment 16245View attachment 16246

I think it's the dead talking to her. Voices from the Lifestream (same thing with the Whispers screaming at the end of Remake)
Maybe people dead during Avalanche bombs ? Maybe just lamenting souls, I don't remember something explaining it.

We know thanks to Remake that she's afraid of ghosts. So it may be linked.

 

[Sacky]

I think it's the dead talking to her. Voices from the Lifestream (same thing with the Whispers screaming at the end of Remake)
Maybe people dead during Avalanche bombs ? Maybe just lamenting souls, I don't remember something explaining it.

We know thanks to Remake that she's afraid of ghosts. So it may be linked.

k im predicting this will be a horror scene part with them screaming at her in part 3 then

 

[Ryushikaze]

The "other" Sephiroth is the Sephiroth who manifests thanks to his ability to control the Arbiters of Fate. That's what the Ch18 Sephiroth is, one that manifested via the Whispers.

They're all in the end, Sephiroth. The reason he knew things is thanks to his ability to control fate and read the knowledge that the Planet has.

I didn't mean to imply he was a fake or anything, just that the Ch18 arbiter of fate Sephiroth has a slightly different agenda from and is not communicating with the sephiroth we know from OG.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@LNK: I Don't think it matters if Cloud forgives Sephiroth or not, he remembers him. As in he has knowledge of who he is. That's all Sephiroth needs. His hatred for Cloud allows him to maintain his individual existence within the Lifestream, Cloud's memories of Sephiroth give him an anchor in the living world. I see why you're conflating the two, but it's not required that Cloud remember him in a vengeful or angry way, just to remember him at all. Even a fond "he really was a good guy once, I miss that" memory does the job.

I was paraphrasing Servo himself, though the wife does find my voice sexy, so...

Forgive me, I missed the reference and anti-ed your joke with my own. Servo's line clicked as soon as you said this

A little over 14 years, in fact.

Time flies and stands still at the same time.

Sometimes it's 2024, sometimes it's 1997, sometimes it's all the time in between. All it takes is a jump to the left.

I wanna get to the "step to the right." Specifically "right" as a synonym for "correct"

We needed more stupid cursed fusions. Luke Yamcha and Krillin. become Krimcha or Yallin. Or Krillin and Trunks could form Krunks, the most stoned earth defender, finally unseating Chiaotzu.

Picolloku/Gokollo! Vegetunks/Trungeta! Bulchi/Chi-ma! Grab the fusion bands from DB Fusions and anything is possible.

Changing subjects only slightly, all the characters in TF and TF2 are paid mercs. You know who else is a badass Mercenary? Cloud. Imagine him (and the rest of the crew) meeting the TF2 gang.

Cloud for 10th class! But yeah, I don't see them getting along super well, which is like as not to be entertaining.

It's a defense mechanism gone awry, basically.

Survival situations call for a knife's edge balance of confidence and caution. Some folks fall off the edge, all the more likely when it's not life or death anymore.

Until they accept the facts of the matter, yes. So possibly always.

To be clear I was specifically referencing Time Adventure from Adventure Time's series finale.

Spray the "bubbles" everywhere!

That's how you make Best Friends with hide and seek buddies.

Sonic's greatest enemy. Waiting.

Sonic CD was best for this. Wait too long? Sonic quits.

Yoda was, I think, mostly irritated at Luke's defeatism and being a sassy bastard about it rather than trying to dispense glorious sage wisdom.

Now tell the rest of the internet.

I can but hope it amused.

You need not hope, for it is known.

That sounds similar to the way I produce the stereo effect. It's much easier to do when pitching low and raspy.

Does it involve some throat tension? Like you're making a loose fist with the musculature around your larynx?

Yeah that would do it.

If we skip the full 15 from Dirge, she'll be 34, making her one year younger than Barret at the start of 7 and remake. Fun fact, he celebrates a birthday during the bouncing around the planet. Actually probably around when they're in Costa del Sol or Corel.

Happy birthday Barret! No wonder he kept the sailor suit, it's a self-birthday present.

Some do, yeah. I've said before, there are two types of people who hate being wrong. There's the type who strive to be correct and the type who just refuse to admit they were ever wrong.

Aside from the people who just don't care, that's about everyone.

Aerith being dead is I think part of why the LTD is so long lasting, but also why it gets to insane, since it means things "ending up" C/A are always just a bit off kilter.

Agreed. If Aerith hadn't died, Cloud would still be with Tifa, which would be enough to stop a lot of Cleriths from CAltists all by itself. Also shipping Cloud with Aerith doesn't require so much "what the christ?!" if Aerith isn't dead.

It does serve as a neat microcosm of things that happen in the wider world, yes.

Of course that's true of debate in general, isn't it? Even the old "who would win if X fought Y?" debates.

The usual suspects, basically. Anastar, Cali, etc.

Have we made the obvious ABC joke concerning Anastar, BlankBeat and Cali? I don't remember it but with hindsight it jumps out at me.

Plus they've Already Been Chewed up and spat out around here, so

It was a pretty common joke. And yeah, I have found the one constant with culty cleriths is that everything is permitted so long as it furthers the goal of convincing people C/A is endgame. Even if it contradicts the story, even if it contradicts what you said five minutes ago.

It is known. I'm surprised never to have heard "Cloud despises Aerith, which proves he loves Aerith!" It'd barely be an exaggeration honestly.

I did find a good chunk of them posted recently, so that'll help.

We're gettin' the band back together.

Now I'm imagining Aerith but Bostonian. Maybe in the nonsense TF2.FF7 crossover Scout is from Midgar.

That's where I'd put him, yeah. There or maybe Junon. The other mercs are harder to place.

Oh yeah, they were calculated, but not prophetic. Reeve has access to information but he's not a prognosticator, he just play acts like one.

Very good, we agree.

10 pages maybe?

Yeah, that fits.

You have to have standards.

Without them there's basically no point.

To say what needs to be said, how it needs to be said and when is an art and I try and practice it regularly.

Well said. I'm still acclimating to shifts in the forum's culture, so for now you're more in the know on the when.

It does not excuse it, but I wonder how much of it is predicated on spite for things CALtists say and wanting to get back at them?

Around the internets, I have no idea. Here on TLS it was the primary notice for shit posting mean shit about Aerith.

I remember on a few occasions I spun a wild yarn about Aerith- noting that it was bullshit, mind you- engaging in some heinous activity, prostitution sometimes, selling hard drugs mostly- as an example of how shitty it was to hear that about Tifa and how bad it made people look to make those sort of theories legitimately.

Yeah I've done this too, and wasn't always as good at noting my own bullshit. Either way they rarely seemed to get the point.

This being the internet, I did have a few people not realize I was trying to use an object lesson and that I did not actually believe or advocate these things.

Yeah I recall whole pages of that honestly.

Aerith the weed dealer is just a delightfully silly image, though.

I recall pointing out that while this is obviously not true, it easily could have been and still fit the narrative.

"Say whatever it takes" and all that.

If only there was anything they could say that'd make a difference.

Tifa would still be there because she's on a constant GOTO loop, but yes. I mean look at how he acted the second he remembered Zack. It was massive guilt at simple the thought of forgetting Zack existed. Imagine how bad it gets when he remembers Zack died so he could live.

Cloud, as he often does, needs a hug.

It's the best course of action available to them at this moment. The right course of action would involve stopping everything and working through his problems but both Shinra and Sephiroth kibosh that plan by virtue of being on their tail and fucking with Cloud respectively.

I tend to agree, stopping to handle things wasn't a viable option. There were no viable options, they just took the nonviable option that took longer to go to shit.

Now I'm curious what the WIR versions of the characters who know they're in a video game are like. Gilgamesh is exactly the same. He sort of already knows.

Making characters self aware us always fun. Think we can talk Sephiroth into coming to Badanon meetings? Might be good for him.

I'd have to double check but I think those were gray static moments, too. Meaning his subconscious was doing it.

They were. That was all Cloud keeping Zack in the vault.

Could be. It's definitely a him thing. The brain flashes are color coded and gray static is used in OG, Remake and Every Crisis to represent real Cloud.

Yup.

Feel free. She knocked down the center channel on my home theater the other day so a tiny bit of extra blame will do her no harm.

Ahhhh kitties. Until I had kids, never had I loved something so inconvenient so much.

You have to wonder how much of Cloud being casually superhuman without Jenova is genetic and how much is due to constant mako exposure from playing around on mt nibel as a child.

You'd think more of Nibelheim would be like that if it was environmental. Though now I wonder if Claudia had this in her too.

He's like if Thor thought he was just Donald Blake and desperately wanted to become Captain America even as he is just sort of absent mindedly lifting cars to look for lost pets.

This is both hilarious and accurate.

It's also a nice bookend for when he absolutely does rescue the girl when she's in a pinch in the final moments of the game.

Also arriving in Edge to save her and Denzel.

Do you think Cloud practiced that boomerang sword throw? Or did he learn it from watching Yuffie, as he seems to have learned the sword from watching Zack and Sephiroth?

 

[Yoru]

What do you think Aerith's purifying, healing rain was for?

Sephiroth along with his remnants were purified. Sephiroth's will inevitably becomes fragmented upon death and is purified upon getting recycled again. That's why Geostigma can be cured.

Why do you think she let people die for weeks/months when she could have just invoked a downpour and avoided a lot of misfortune? She could even have saved Cloud from sinking into depression by curing Denzel and Cloud himself.

Real question. Not a petty attack to get the last word. I sincerely wonder.

Plothole?



Because when she does this, Kadaj and his brothers are still around. And Sephiroth has not been summoned yet. So she doesn't need to purify them first to heal Geostigma

 

[LNK]

I Don't think it matters if Cloud forgives Sephiroth or not, he remembers him. As in he has knowledge of who he is. That's all Sephiroth needs. His hatred for Cloud allows him to maintain his individual existence within the Lifestream, Cloud's memories of Sephiroth give him an anchor in the living world. I see why you're conflating the two, but it's not required that Cloud remember him in a vengeful or angry way, just to remember him at all. Even a fond "he really was a good guy once, I miss that" memory does the job.

Oh I agree that Cloud doesn't need to have those negative emotions in order to remember Sephiroth. But, those negative emotions are the driving force to his memory of Sephiroth. Every memory of Sephiroth has to do with the pain he's caused Cloud. My interpretation of the ending of AC implies that Cloud no longer has those negative emotions towards Sephiroth, so he will no longer even think of Sephiroth. Add in DoC which doesn't have Sephiroth at all (which is odd if he was capable of returning), I think it's safe to come to the conclusion he is indeed gone.

I am open to him not being gone though. I think the ending of AC was vague enough to conclude Sephiroth could come back

 

[abzy1200]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

 

[Yoru]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

It's more a question of Tifa's "emblematic" head movement.



You can call it "eyes of love" lol

 

[Sacky]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

i also thought this XD

alright guys she blowing a kiss or not?

 

[Yoru]

For me, it's always been a "I hope you're well rested, big boy, because tonight I expect you to be energetic in bed" look.

But people are going to accuse the Cloti of being just big perverts, so I won't say more.

 

[nars305]

I’m genuinely curious of how long interpretations like this have been used in the debate? I ask because I’ve yet to see something that isn’t something like this.

Like I completely understand interpretation…but am I wrong to see this as reaching?

It makes me wonder what even is the debate? That Cloud only loved Aerith? He met her and forgot about Tifa? He settled for Tifa after she dies?

 

[Yoru]

View attachment 16252

I’m genuinely curious of how long interpretations like this have been used in the debate? I ask because I’ve yet to see something that isn’t something like this.

Like I completely understand interpretation…but am I wrong to see this as reaching?

It makes me wonder what even is the debate? That Cloud only loved Aerith? He met her and forgot about Tifa? He settled for Tifa after she dies?

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

 

[nars305]

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

Lmao, I don’t engage with anyone. It’s just interesting I guess. Like a morbid curiosity.

I mean the LTD is interesting, but it’s never really “fun” it seems to discuss it. Back in the day I loved talking about The Last of Us and if Joel was right or wrong for what he did. It was interesting to see how people interpreted the end and the game as a whole that led up to it.

But this…I mean debating something like a kiss. It’s nuts.

 

[imach0c0]

I've seen discourse where the Loveless Play is the representative of the love story between CA.

TBH, although Cloud was Alphried, most of that storyline felt like it could be applied to ZA. However, the part that can apply to Cloud specifically is when Varvados says: "o puppet of fate" and the lines after that.

Is Alphreid Cloud, Zack or both?

Thoughts?

 

[imach0c0]

Lmao, I don’t engage with anyone. It’s just interesting I guess. Like a morbid curiosity.

I mean the LTD is interesting, but it’s never really “fun” it seems to discuss it. Back in the day I loved talking about The Last of Us and if Joel was right or wrong for what he did. It was interesting to see how people interpreted the end and the game as a whole that led up to it.

But this…I mean debating something like a kiss. It’s nuts.

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

 

[Yoru]

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

In her HA GS date, she's asking him "until the ride ends" ... I mean... It's not really something you ask to someone if you feel you're sharing the same feelings. It's borderline asking for pity.

I'm sorry I always agree and try to not dismiss CA moments in the game. But it's not a romantic moment at all...

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Oh I agree that Cloud doesn't need to have those negative emotions in order to remember Sephiroth. But, those negative emotions are the driving force to his memory of Sephiroth. Every memory of Sephiroth has to do with the pain he's caused Cloud. My interpretation of the ending of AC implies that Cloud no longer has those negative emotions towards Sephiroth, so he will no longer even think of Sephiroth. Add in DoC which doesn't have Sephiroth at all (which is odd if he was capable of returning), I think it's safe to come to the conclusion he is indeed gone.

It's really not odd that Sephiroth isn't in DoC whether he can return or not. He'll always be Cloud's most personal nemesis, but that doesn't require he be behind every crisis. Not every Spider-Man story features Norman Osborn, Lex Luthor isn't the only problem Superman deals with, Batman has far more problems than just the Joker. Besides, DoC isn't Cloud's game, it's Vinnie's

I am open to him not being gone though. I think the ending of AC was vague enough to conclude Sephiroth could come back

Agreed, if they want him back that door is still open with no need to justify it further.

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

For me, it's always been a "I hope you're well rested, big boy, because tonight I expect you to be energetic in bed" look.

But people are going to accuse the Cloti of being just big perverts, so I won't say more.

I have always read that look as "you are so getting laid tonight" since my first viewing, for what it's worth.

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

Copium is known to be flammable, to the point of escalating flame wars when used inappropriately. Stay safe!

 

[Ryeleigh]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

It's really faint but you can catch it in a gif.

 

[abzy1200]

TBH, although Cloud was Alphried, most of that storyline felt like it could be applied to ZA. However, the part that can apply to Cloud specifically is when Varvados says: "o puppet of fate" and the lines after that.

The play features two lovers, the man vows to return to her, and if I remember correctly he "knows exactly where to find her", and the woman claims she will wait for his return.

Who spends almost an entire year fighting to return to a place where he knows his lover is after being gone? Zack.

Who spends 5 years waiting for his return in the same spot? Aerith.

In regards to the "o puppet of fate," I think it's about both. The connection to Cloud is obvious, him being a "puppet" has been alluded to dozens of times at this point.

For Zack, from what I gather, omniAerith(?) and omniSephiroth(?) are having some sort of tug of war over "fate," and Zack is caught right in the middle of it. So I guess he can also be referred to as a "puppet of fate," just in a slightly different way than Cloud.

I have always read that look as "you are so getting laid tonight" since my first viewing, for what it's worth.

and he has a big stupid smile on his face after he sees her, for what it's worth

 

[Maidenofwar]

What is romantic about the CA GS date because for Rebirth's Ultimania Cloud's profile page states the dates can be romantic (Cloud and Aerith screenshot or funny, Cloud with Yuffie), the devs also said some dates/ bonds were more romantic, some more family.

 

[nars305]

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

I do think it’s intimate. Aerith always holds Cloud’s arm but this time he changed it for them to hold hands. So it’s intimate, but is it romantic? Is it just complicated? Because Aerith has complicated feelings?

I’ll just give my full thoughts. I don’t think it’s right or proves anything, it’s just my interpretation.

Aerith brings up Zack, which I wonder why. She says she wants to be with Cloud right now, and she’s trying to find him…but…

She knows he’s not the “real Cloud”. So is this what complicated her feelings? Who is she falling for?

Then Cloud asks if Tifa talked to her, which we know about what and as they both do, she lies and says no.

So Aerith in this moment knows Cloud recently remembered Zack, and not just remembered Zack. Tifa specifically says that he also remembered Zack was his friend.

Now Cloud in this moment hears Aerith talking about Zack and finds she still doesn’t know he’s dead. Kind of awkward, because Cloud “knows” how he died.

So then she holds Cloud, and he holds her hand. So with all this context, is it romantic or is it comfort? Aerith just said she wants to be with the real Cloud, which he’s not, and Cloud hears her talking about Zack who he knows who died. Is that really romantic?


Then I have to consider Tifa’s date, where it’s nothing but romantic, and where he kisses her. I don’t think Cloud would kiss Tifa if he had feelings for Aerith.

 

[LNK]

It's really not odd that Sephiroth isn't in DoC whether he can return or not. He'll always be Cloud's most personal nemesis, but that doesn't require he be behind every crisis. Not every Spider-Man story features Norman Osborn, Lex Luthor isn't the only problem Superman deals with, Batman has far more problems than just the Joker. Besides, DoC isn't Cloud's game, it's Vinnie's

I'm not saying Sephiroth has to be behind every crisis. But, if one is going to say Sephiroth isn't gone post AC, it's odd that there is no actual evidence of him still being there. Especially in the game that the main enemy wanted to suck up all the Lifestream of the Planet and fly off elsewhere, leaving said planet to die. Yet we don't see the man who has bent the Lifestream to his will at all? Not even a tincie wincie bit? Hmmmm, could it be he was actually gone for the final time and not coming back?

Agreed, if they want him back that door is still open with no need to justify it further.

Sure, but the back door can also be closed with no need to justify it further. Tis' all I'm saying

 

[Yoru]

There are 3 major moments when Aerith and Cloud are very close physically.

The GS date: She imposes herself on him. She tells him clearly in words, "please, let me enjoy this moment". It's not an exchange of glances or anything. There's no real call for interpretation. She needs tenderness at this point because she's just been talking about Zack, whom Cloud describes as dead. So it's more comfort > romance.

Church date: She asks for forgiveness for what she's about to do, then comes and throws herself into his arms. He says nothing, and chooses to respond by hugging her as well. The preceding discussion is vague and super ambiguous, but this moment can clearly be considered romantic.

Aerith's death: I'm not a big fan of talking about romance when the subject of the scene is someone's death. There's no kiss good-bye. There's tenderness. Everyone can see what they want, but personally I find it creepy to talk about romance.

tl;dr : The church date is way more romantic than any other moment in the game, GS date included.

 

[imach0c0]

There are 3 major moments when Aerith and Cloud are very close physically.

The GS date: She imposes herself on him. She tells him clearly in words, "please, let me enjoy this moment". It's not an exchange of glances or anything. There's no real call for interpretation. She needs tenderness at this point because she's just been talking about Zack, whom Cloud describes as dead. So it's more comfort > romance.

Church date: She asks for forgiveness for what she's about to do, then comes and throws herself into his arms. He says nothing, and chooses to respond by hugging her as well. The preceding discussion is vague and super ambiguous, but this moment can clearly be considered romantic.

Aerith's death: I'm not a big fan of talking about romance when the subject of the scene is someone's death. There's no kiss good-bye. There's tenderness. Everyone can see what they want, but personally I find it creepy to talk about romance.

tl;dr : The church date is way more romantic than any other moment in the game, GS date included.

The way I interpreted all 3 examples you mentioned was people comforting each other. The dream date could be romantic; if it was, it felt one-sided from Aerith's end. Cloud is hard to read during that whole sequence. Having said that, I struggle to see a romantic response from Cloud's end.