SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

SilverSisu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Zack bro
That is my operating hypothesis. I think he might actually still be partly between worlds as well, and that is why he can see the crack in the sky.
I guess that is in the realm of possibilities but my problem with this is that if we have two Aeriths (alive and dead) then we must also have two Clouds aswell (one that breached the fate and second from this new altered world who actually saved Aerith)

The other altered world party members would still be outside of forgotten capital during that moment. Thats why they weren't there.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
True! I guess looking deeper into the memory, it's not a memory of happiness though. In that case, it's one of anger and hatred for all the pain he's caused Cloud up until that point.
No disagreement there. Your wording made it sound like it was active and continual on Cloud's part.

Yeah, but without Cloud's memory of Sephiroth, he wouldn't have been able to do that. Sephiroth likely has hatred towards Cloud, but he still requires Cloud remembering him when it comes down to it. If Cloud forgets him, he doesn't believe he can return
My point is more that Sephiroth is the one instigating, trying to keep himself fresh in Cloud's mind, because he does require Cloud to keep going. That's why I say it's Sephiroth's hate rather than Cloud's. Not that Cloud likes Sephiroth, but he would rather forget and move on if he could. Sephiroth is doing his damndest to stop that.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I guess that is in the realm of possibilities but my problem with this is that if we have two Aeriths (alive and dead) then we must also have two Clouds aswell (one that breached the fate and second from this new altered world who actually saved Aerith)

The other altered world party members would still be outside of forgotten capital during that moment. Thats why they are weren't there.
Yeah, my working hypothesis is that For a time, Our Cloud was both of those Clouds before fully splitting off into Our Cloud and alternate Cloud. Thus both of those Clouds would have memories of Aerith both alive and Dead. Our Aerith (or maybe Omni Aerith) might actually be aware of this fact, given the pink brain pain regarding her death in the ending.

I think being crossed over with multiple other hims might also be why he sees the crack in the sky at the end as well.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
But he doesn't NEED to be erased for good, in order for him to not return. All it takes is for Cloud to move on from his feelings towards him. That's what's implied within the lore of ff7 universe.


Yes, but it's not Cloud's physical body that is the anchor. It's his memory of Sephiroth that is the anchor. How do you know Cloud can't forget Sephiroth? Is there anything in the lore that supports Cloud not being able to let go? To me, that goes against what the ending of AC is implying.

Because he's not a robot. He hasn't had a lobotomy. And since he was treated in FF7, he can no longer block memories completely like he used to. The slightest thought of Aerith from time to time, for example, automatically makes him think of Sephiroth. The dude literally fell in front of him to kill her. So I'm sorry, but I disagree and don't think your logic really works. At the end of AC Cloud has the psychological upper hand. Basically, he can come back all he wants, Cloud is stronger than him. But Sephiroth is still "alive" and as Remake and Rebirth imply... that's a problem because it gives him ENORMOUS possibilities to screw things up retrospectively.

So yeah, we won't agree and have to wait how they setup things in the 3rd game.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
You know Aly was always good to me, I remember her with fondness, and her personal struggles, I wonder if she's still around, she was getting up there in age last I remember.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
No disagreement there. Your wording made it sound like it was active and continual on Cloud's part.
For sure! You countering my initial statement made me go back to check why I thought it was Cloud's hatred. I knew I was thinking of Case of Lifestream. I just misremembered exactly what was said in there.

My point is more that Sephiroth is the one instigating, trying to keep himself fresh in Cloud's mind, because he does require Cloud to keep going. That's why I say it's Sephiroth's hate rather than Cloud's. Not that Cloud likes Sephiroth, but he would rather forget and move on if he could. Sephiroth is doing his damndest to stop that.
Yeah, Sephiroth is definitely instigating things. Buuutttt, as long as Cloud doesn't waver and give in to temptation, Sephiroth won't be able to return.

Unless of course he finds another way
 
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SilverSisu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Zack bro
Yeah, my working hypothesis is that For a time, Our Cloud was both of those Clouds before fully splitting off into Our Cloud and alternate Cloud. Thus both of those Clouds would have memories of Aerith both alive and Dead. Our Aerith (or maybe Omni Aerith) might actually be aware of this fact, given the pink brain pain regarding her death in the ending.

I think being crossed over with multiple other hims might also be why he sees the crack in the sky at the end as well.
That is actually pretty good theory!
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
Because he's not a robot. He hasn't had a lobotomy
One doesn't need to be a robot or have a lobotomy in order to let go of anger and hatred for someone though. Yes it takes a lot of forgiveness and care, but it's 100 percent possible. People do it in real life.

And since he was treated in FF7, he can no longer block memories completely like he used to. The slightest thought of Aerith from time to time, for example, automatically makes him think of Sephiroth. The dude literally fell in front of him to kill her
Yes, but this was because Cloud hadn't forgiven himself for Aerith's death. The ending of AC implies he finally had, and he was moving back towards having a happy life with Tifa and the kids.

So I'm sorry, but I disagree and don't think your logic really works
It's fine if you disagree, but the logic definitely works. As I said, it happens in real life. Not everyone stays hating people forever.

At the end of AC Cloud has the psychological upper hand. Basically, he can come back all he wants, Cloud is stronger than him. But Sephiroth is still "alive" and as Remake and Rebirth imply... that's a problem because it gives him ENORMOUS possibilities to screw things up retrospectively.
Sephiroth BELIEVES he can come back if Cloud remembers him. There's nothing that I've seen that implies he can come back without Cloud doing that. If Re trilogy ends before AC like I think it will, that won't change
So yeah, we won't agree and have to wait how they setup things in the 3rd game
For sure!
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Sephiroth BELIEVES he can come back if Cloud remembers him. There's nothing that I've seen that implies he can come back without Cloud doing that. If Re trilogy ends before AC like I think it will, that won't change

We've seen two things in the FF7 universe:

  • Sephiroth is active on the non-living plane aka the Lifestream. He can peek in the planet's history, he can give people a weird cancer etc etc. His latest feat is to have taken control of some of the Whispers. One of the most powerful "weapons" of the planet.
  • Sephiroth is active on the living plane. He can take control of people with Jenova cells. Act through them. Speak through them. And even without doing anything, the Jenova cells' priority is to join their counterparts. It's automatic.

What I mean is... If you keep things as they are in AC. Sephiroth will ALWAYS be there. Of course, Cloud is his last link with the living, material world. But he can still do all those shenaningans in the Lifestream. That's the whole point of his human part. To have the ability to be part of the Lifestream, unlike Jenova or the Gii.

Sephiroth in the Lifestream is a problem. They have to adress it.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
Sephiroth in the Lifestream is a problem. They have to adress it.
Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though. Plus, as long as Cloud continues on the path he was after AC, Sephiroth won't be able to return. I think the devs can choose to have a more definitive ending if they WANT. I just don't think it's necessary.

If they did go the definitive route, it'd be interesting to see how they go about showing it though. Whatever they choose to do, I'm sure it'll be done well
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though.

The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.

If they really commit to the idea of Sephiroth coming back from AC of course (Black One Winged, the OST, etc)

Maybe it's just a retcon and some fanservice. Totally could be the case.

We'll have to wait and see
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.
As far as I know Remake and Rebirth aren't post AC though. Nor is Sephiroth. Sure, he has knowledge of the future, but that doesn't mean he's actually from the future.

But, if he is indeed from the future, it'll definitely be interesting to see what's done in the third game.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
We do know there are two distinct Sephiroths with two distinct agendas. One has future knowledge and the other does not. In fact one seems to be completely unaware of the other, by design.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
We do know there are two distinct Sephiroths with two distinct agendas. One has future knowledge and the other does not. In fact one seems to be completely unaware of the other, by design.

The "other" Sephiroth is the Sephiroth who manifests thanks to his ability to control the Arbiters of Fate. That's what the Ch18 Sephiroth is, one that manifested via the Whispers.

They're all in the end, Sephiroth. The reason he knew things is thanks to his ability to control fate and read the knowledge that the Planet has.
 
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Rin

Pro Adventurer
Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though
But where else would he be? If he's not in the LS then he's like the Gi, existing for eternity without being able to return. But we know that's not the case otherwise he'd still be wreaking havoc physically. We didn't see him get sealed off, he just "disappears". Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj go back to the LS, too, and they are apart of Sephiroth himself.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
What do you think Aerith's purifying, healing rain was for?

Sephiroth along with his remnants were purified. Sephiroth's will inevitably becomes fragmented upon death and is purified upon getting recycled again. That's why Geostigma can be cured.

She cured people of their Jenova stuff sure.
But Sephiroth is more than that. That's why he's dangerous in the first place. His human part is compatible with the Lifestream.

Anyway, I'll stop here, as we're going round in circles and polluting the main subject of this channel, which is reserved for LTD.

Even if everyone knows that the real LTD is Tifa > Cloud < Sephiroth :desu:
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
But where else would he be? If he's not in the LS then he's like the Gi, existing for eternity without being able to return. But we know that's not the case otherwise he'd still be wreaking havoc physically. We didn't see him get sealed off, he just "disappears". Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj go back to the LS, too, and they are apart of Sephiroth himself.
To add onto what Mako said, he's dissolved into the Lifestream. He no longer exists any different from how others dissolve into it. Same thing happened to Aerith and Zack at the end of AC.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Oh, now I remember what else I wanted to comment on but sorry, I'm too lazy to look for the comment it would've been in response to. But basically, why hasn't Zack dissolved into the lifestream? Since Rebirth added this description to the region:

In ancient times, Gongaga was settled by descendants of the Cetra, who lived in quiet seclusion.

I thought maybe Zack has some Cetra ancentry? It might be funny too because Zack haters would probably be livid about it, lol.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.

If they really commit to the idea of Sephiroth coming back from AC of course (Black One Winged, the OST, etc)

Maybe it's just a retcon and some fanservice. Totally could be the case.

We'll have to wait and see
I get what you mean. Cause in AC, Sephiroth says: "I will never be a memory" which implies that he is not gone forever. So if remake project leads into AC, it means Sephiroth has technically won. If remake project wants to destroy Sephiroth once and for all, I can see why remake project would have to end after AC.

Also - narratively, what is the point of Cloud going through a HUGE redemption arc and dealing with the loss to only relapse and suffer like he does in AC? I mean that is also plausible cause even when people recover from trauma, they relapse. So I guess leading into AC could work.

I guess it really depends on what the narrative message they are going with at the end of remake.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
If remake project wants to destroy Sephiroth once and for all, I can see why remake project would have to end after AC.
This has never been the case for the remake project though. When it comes down to it, it's still a remake of ff7. It's not going to end wildly different.

The ending will be a little different, but it'll still lead into AC like ff7 did
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
This has never been the case for the remake project though. When it comes down to it, it's still a remake of ff7. It's not going to end wildly different.

The ending will be a little different, but it'll still lead into AC like ff7 did
I have heard discrepancies with the translation regarding "leading up" VS "linking to" AC. So its hard to say what that actually means because linking can also imply being relevant to AC. So I am not attached to the idea that remake will directly lead into AC.

Its also interesting why the devs would say remake leads into AC cause that kinda reveals the ending. Sure, we don't know how the journey will unfold but given AC's ending we know the destination. It makes me wonder why they would, for a lack of better word, "spoil" the ending.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I have heard discrepancies with the translation regarding "leading up" VS "linking to" AC. So its hard to say what that actually means because linking can also imply being relevant to AC. So I am not attached to the idea that remake will directly lead into AC.
I'm the opposite. They've spent 9+ years saying the trilogy is a remake of ff7. At this point, I'd be very surprised if the ending of the trilogy, didn't lead into AC in the manner ff7 did.

Its also interesting why the devs would say remake leads into AC cause that kinda reveals the ending. Sure, we don't know how the journey will unfold but given AC's ending we know the destination. It makes me wonder why they would, for a lack of better word, "spoil" the ending.
Sure, but isn't that what remakes inherently do? We already knew what the ending is going to be like before even playing the game.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
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SackyBoy
So rewatching lifestream OG. What does Tifa mean she heard Cloud calling out to her. When she is getting overwhelmed by the voices?
 
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