SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Hellenic]

See here's the thing though, it actually kinda is.

Take Tifa out of Final Fantasy 7 and literally everything changes. First off the story changes completely but most importantly, take Tifa away from the story and everything interesting about our main character effectively vanishes.

And like I've said before, if your main character is uninteresting, you might as well give up writing the story before you even start

That's what i basically implied with pointing out it's a key element to Clouds character.

Without Tifa being the trigger that she was to Cloud, he would never have had any of his story here to begin with. I just didn't really elaborate on it, but you gave the follow up.

I don't know about him not being interesting even without that story though. There certainly would be other ways to make his character interesting i'm sure, but this is the route they chose to go with it.

 

[nars305]

When developers have a meeting about a gondola ride I have to believe they put some thought into more important parts of the story.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Here a problem … you are assuming by me saying it’s ambiguous narrative that I’m talking about Advent Children and the novels.

I did not assume you meant those, but they are part of the overall narrative. But even before getting to those the narrative is fairly clear cut.

Kind of seems you are thinking I’m a Clerith shipper who doesn’t view that Tifa and Cloud are living under on house together in separate rooms. Which I wasn’t.

I wasn't assuming you had any particular shipping druthers. You just said the narrative was ambiguous and this is the thread where we discuss the question of Cloud's feelings of romance as it relates to the narrative. So I addressed Cloud's romance as it relates to the narrative.

I more thinking about Rebirth and Cloud’s and Aerith’s interactions. That whole ‘like-like’ speech I have read shippers dissecting that scene to no end. Also the ‘dream date’ being hotly debated as a Zack dream date when we know that Nojima loves to reference previous written scenes, like a lot and there really isn’t any hidden meaning to it. I hope we can all agree that the dream date was mostly a set up to display how choices don’t matter against fate.

The dream date is literally classed as part of Zack's story in the game's internal logic. Setting the game to skip his segments skips that date. It contains references to Zack's date with Aerith, and she has slipups like referring to the church as "Our place" which was what it was for Zack and Aeirht, but not Cloud and Aerith. Yes, it's very much about inevitability, but it's also about Aerith sorting out her feelings and if I may be so bold, saying she can't fight hers for Zack any more than she can fight fate, no matter how much she might want to be try and move on.

Like, by Aerith's own words in OG and Retrilogy, the Zack in Cloud is what first drew her to him. The strange similarities. So even though consciously, rationally, she wants to move on from a man she hasn't seen in five years and on some level knows is dead, she just can't.

 

[Hellenic]

Pretty much the devs say the scenes are slightly removed from the story but they show Clouds bonds with each member correctly. High affinity seems to be what Cloud would be with each person and side missions i would count as canon since the game references them even if you never did them.

Yeah the quests definitely have canonity to them, as we clearly saw with the likes of all the side characters that continue their arcs here like for example Kyrie, Leslie, Jules and the flower talk followup with Aerith.

Tons of others too so no interaction is meaningless. The dates are more on the hypothetical scenarios, but they still reflect how Cloud would be with each character in that situation.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, the only thing keeping all the Loveless plays and the dates from being canon is that they all occur at the same time and are therefore exclusionary to each other. This is why most people have taken to referring to them as "near" canon, "true" and "real"

Hilariously, there is one game I can think of where there are in fact multiple, completely exclusionary endings, and yet all of them are canon, and that's Elder Scrolls Redguard. In universe no one is sure what or how it happened, but all of the possible endings did happen and all of their aftereffects are referenced in future games.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Look, just in general. Debates are like business it's nothing personal. And you have to be fair about it. I notice this fandom and I've seen on both sides in my time has a huge problem just accepting points they don't like.

The moment it's brought up you have people who will will switch to bad faith and take the poster out of context, or misrepresent their position or bring up an irrelevant topic or other logical fallacy of choice to just not address that point. That has been my experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.

And it's just not good arguing. If you are making a claim you just need to accept there are counterclaims. And well thought out arguments address those counterclaims with their own evidence.

Just saying if you choose to participate in any argument you need to be prepared to face opposition. And I'm personally always welcoming opposition because that's how we expand our world view.

And basically the reason I like it here is because people actually do discuss things here. Whether they agree or not. Even whether I agree or not. There are conversations. There is back and forth. Ideas aren't just shut down for the hive mind. That is my observation.

I do appreciate that.

Just putting that out there.

 

[Yoru]

Speaking of Zack, as we've seen with Remake and Rebirth, they've taken the approach of telling the great moments of FF7, but with a twist to stimulate players' feelings, in an attempt to make us feel the same way we did back then, even though we already know the story.

For example we saw this with Aerith's death. Even if not everyone agrees with their approach, we can't deny that they succeeded in giving some of us that feeling of shock and difficulty in mourning (if the developers' itw is to be trusted).

So, given that they let the cat out of the bag about Zack's existence in Remake, and that with Rebirth it's pretty easy to understand that Cloud has some troubling similarities, I wonder if they're preparing a big twist to replace the one in OG.

And I wonder if this isn't linked to the famous deleted scenes in the credits.

In Part 3, for example, we could discover that scenes we played in Remake and Rebirth didn't turn out at all as we thought. We had a delulu POV from the start of the game.

 

[Sacky]

Here a problem … you are assuming by me saying it’s ambiguous narrative that I’m talking about Advent Children and the novels. Kind of seems you are thinking I’m a Clerith shipper who doesn’t view that Tifa and Cloud are living under on house together in separate rooms. Which I wasn’t. I more thinking about Rebirth and Cloud’s and Aerith’s interactions. That whole ‘like-like’ speech I have read shippers dissecting that scene to no end. Also the ‘dream date’ being hotly debated as a Zack dream date when we know that Nojima loves to reference previous written scenes, like a lot and there really isn’t any hidden meaning to it. I hope we can all agree that the dream date was mostly a set up to display how choices don’t matter against fate.

To be fair all we can do is assume if you don't tell us XD. But the problem is its the first thing people think off when someone says ambigious that they mean for the whole compilation since that argument happens so much. The dream date is interesting it is a meta about illusion of choice, While being a plot point to get Cloud the materia. While giving Aerith or future Aerith, or whatever Aerith a last date with Cloud. But it absolutely has Zack references in it and cuts back to him. The like and Liiiiking to me after speaking about this dialogue so much now XD i just see it As Aerith likes Cloud but again has never met the fixed real Cloud and knows she started liking him because she saw him as Zack. Then over the course of the game started to see him as Cloud and knows theres the real him inside hidden. So she truthfully doesn't know what kind of like she has for Cloud. This doesn't take away her love for Zack even if she did love Cloud. But then shes falling in love with someone who isn't who she says it is "in her words it's not real"

 

[LNK]

In Part 3, for example, we could discover that scenes we played in Remake and Rebirth didn't turn out at all as we thought. We had a delulu POV from the start of the game.

We'll get the real Nibelheim flashback. Nothing shall forestall his return

 

[Sacky]

Speaking of Zack, as we've seen with Remake and Rebirth, they've taken the approach of telling the great moments of FF7, but with a twist to stimulate players' feelings, in an attempt to make us feel the same way we did back then, even though we already know the story.

For example we saw this with Aerith's death. Even if not everyone agrees with their approach, we can't deny that they succeeded in giving some of us that feeling of shock and difficulty in mourning (if the developers' itw is to be trusted).

So, given that they let the cat out of the bag about Zack's existence in Remake, and that with Rebirth it's pretty easy to understand that Cloud has some troubling similarities, I wonder if they're preparing a big twist to replace the one in OG.

And I wonder if this isn't linked to the famous deleted scenes in the credits.

In Part 3, for example, we could discover that scenes we played in Remake and Rebirth didn't turn out at all as we thought. We had a delulu POV from the start of the game.

oh wow that could be interesting. Would make replaying them all a fresh experience once you know

 

[Rin]

Look, just in general. Debates are like business it's nothing personal. And you have to be fair about it. I notice this fandom and I've seen on both sides in my time has a huge problem just accepting points they don't like.

The moment it's brought up you have people who will will switch to bad faith and take the poster out of context, or misrepresent their position or bring up an irrelevant topic or other logical fallacy of choice to just not address that point. That has been my experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.

And it's just not good arguing. If you are making a claim you just need to accept there are counterclaims. And well thought out arguments address those counterclaims with their own evidence.

Just saying if you choose to participate in any argument you need to be prepared to face opposition. And I'm personally always welcoming opposition because that's how we expand our world view.

And basically the reason I like it here is because people actually do discuss things here. Whether they agree or not. Even whether I agree or not. There are conversations. There is back and forth. Ideas aren't just shut down for the hive mind. That is my observation.

I do appreciate that.

Just putting that out there. Take it or leave it..

Agreed. There are tons of Cloti takes I don't agree with and tons of Cloti fans I don't personally like and therefore don't interact with because they make bad faith arguments and are hellbent on portraying Aerith like the devil himself. Thats not something I subscribe to, even if we share the same ship, so I side-eye their takes just as much as I side-eye bad Clerith ones.

I like it here because people can talk about things openly and honestly without being shut down, ignored, or villainized.

 

[Sacky]

Look, just in general. Debates are like business it's nothing personal. And you have to be fair about it. I notice this fandom and I've seen on both sides in my time has a huge problem just accepting points they don't like.

The moment it's brought up you have people who will will switch to bad faith and take the poster out of context, or misrepresent their position or bring up an irrelevant topic or other logical fallacy of choice to just not address that point. That has been my experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.

And it's just not good arguing. If you are making a claim you just need to accept there are counterclaims. And well thought out arguments address those counterclaims with their own evidence.

Just saying if you choose to participate in any argument you need to be prepared to face opposition. And I'm personally always welcoming opposition because that's how we expand our world view.

And basically the reason I like it here is because people actually do discuss things here. Whether they agree or not. Even whether I agree or not. There are conversations. There is back and forth. Ideas aren't just shut down for the hive mind. That is my observation.

I do appreciate that.

Just putting that out there.

For me i try to look at all the ways people have taken a scene. Then ask myself these questions

• Does it have supporting evidence to support it?
• Is it a way the writers would want their characters to act?
• What does it achieve for the story narratively if this was the correct interpretation?
• Does it match what the story has already been building up?

 

[abzy1200]

I don't know about him not being interesting even without that story though. There certainly would be other ways to make his character interesting i'm sure, but this is the route they chose to go with it.

I guess I was just talking about myself a bit, and what I see as an interesting character.

I feel like I can relate to Cloud in some ways, some more than others. So if he didn't have a story of accepting his unextraordinary self, I don't think I would find him nearly as endearing. That's just me though.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

To any Cleriths who might be lurking, or actively seeking to start engaging here, know that I think I can assuredly say a lot of us would and do welcome you to come here and to have conversations. Actual conversations though.

We regularly have @LunarTarotGirl and @Maidenofwar actively engaging in all manner of dialogue and topics discussed here, and it would be lovely to have more people who love and enjoy Clerith to be able to come and join discussions.

Whether you perceive this thread to be skewed or toxic or not, at the end of the day this is one of the very few places I’ve personally found where healthy and respectful debate is not only encouraged, but actively preserved by all of us here. We want and desire these meaningful conversations, debates, and discussions.

And if any of you have taken the time to read through several pages back from the start of February 29th and even further back, you’d see that is exactly what has been taking place.

I’ve been around since that time and have found ourselves near always maintaining a respectful level of civility and fairness, whilst not tolerating anything that might unnecessarily derail the conversations that may be taking place or the nature of what we are looking for here, which is as I’ve said healthy discussion.

We’ve had our disagreements here. We’ve shared our personal insights that may not align with someone else’s. But we respectfully agree to disagree and choose to actually discuss our various readings further, without resorting to shooting each other down if we don’t like what someone else is saying, as long as everything is being argued in good faith, with a clear and reasonable understanding that we aren’t just going to accept anyone coming in here and saying someone is wrong, and that they are right. What meaningful discussion arises from that?

And importantly there isn’t tolerance for bad faith arguments on either side here. There have been instances where those who favour Cloti haven’t been arguing in good faith, nor contributing anything meaningful to the discussion other than to be rude to others and not actually engage respectfully in disagreeing with them. And no one on here was going to put up with it. Same with any Cleriths or anyone who doesn’t even ship characters, if they come in and start to just be rude or dismissive without providing a reasonable argument then most here would be quick to try and resolve that.

There is a lot of evidence that when people do come here, they are quick to respect the fact that for hundreds of pages now, there has been a remarkable maintenance of this level of healthy respect. And we encourage everyone to understand that, and welcome everyone to help contribute in this way.

There is a lot of patience here in that respect. There can be a lot of worry or concern, anxiety expressed, and I am guilty of this myself and readily admit to finding myself caught in a very dooming state of mind from time to time. Which is why this place is a sanctuary for conversation. Because the large number of us here all choose to not only debate but to help each other come to different understandings, alternate viewpoints we may not have considered, even if we disagree, our appreciation of the game can be enriched from these insights from other people.

Fundamentally as well this is a place where, I think it’s safe to say, there is an appreciation for and love even for all of the characters being discussed here. That I think is essential in why the conversations here have been as dynamic and meaningful as they have been.

 

[nars305]

Speaking of Zack, as we've seen with Remake and Rebirth, they've taken the approach of telling the great moments of FF7, but with a twist to stimulate players' feelings, in an attempt to make us feel the same way we did back then, even though we already know the story.

For example we saw this with Aerith's death. Even if not everyone agrees with their approach, we can't deny that they succeeded in giving some of us that feeling of shock and difficulty in mourning (if the developers' itw is to be trusted).

So, given that they let the cat out of the bag about Zack's existence in Remake, and that with Rebirth it's pretty easy to understand that Cloud has some troubling similarities, I wonder if they're preparing a big twist to replace the one in OG.

And I wonder if this isn't linked to the famous deleted scenes in the credits.

In Part 3, for example, we could discover that scenes we played in Remake and Rebirth didn't turn out at all as we thought. We had a delulu POV from the start of the game.

I just have to say…lol…I refuse to theorize anything about SE games!!! Especially when Nomura is involved.

Back in the day I would make theories about Kingdom Hearts and my god, what twists that game took between PlayStation, mobile games, handhelds, toaster ovens…anything they could put a KH game on.

I enjoy seeing what others think may happen but I can’t bring myself to think of theories haha.

 

[Hellenic]

Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.

I don't know how that blank face he shows Aerith during the whole conversation there is a confirmation of jealousy in any fashion. Also him calling Zack a loser just comes off to me as him trying to make her feel better about the situation in general in his own way, not him acting jealously. The girls definitely weren't happy with that remark.

 

[Yoru]

We'll get the real Nibelheim flashback. Nothing shall forestall his return

Yeah of course. But as an expansion, we could have Sephiroth toying with Cloud in other moment of Remake/Rebirth even in the intro of the 3rd game.

I don't know, it's just an open question, I'm just wondering what they'll do. Or maybe they'll do nothing and voila.

I was a bit sad in Remake they chose to spoil Zack to new players so I would love if they prepared a big "WTF?!" moment to emulate this twist from OG. And maybe I'm reading too deep and the "WTF?" moment was Zack reveal in itself XD

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

For me i try to look at all the ways people have taken a scene. Then ask myself these questions

• Does it have supporting evidence to support it?
• Is it a way the writers would want their characters to act?
• What does it achieve for the story narratively if this was the correct interpretation?
• Does it match what the story has already been building up?

Basically exactly. That's me too. And it might be a curse even because I always tend to overanalyze everything. I'm aware of that. I'm always asking but why did the writers put that in? Did they want us to think xyz? Does that serve a purpose? What about this other scene here? Do they connect?
My thought process is basically that meme from Always Sunny In Philadelphia.

But I do think in a way it helps me appreciate the perspectives of others as much as my own. And that helps me understand my own thoughts better too. Since I don't normally know how I feel about things unless I think about them at least ten times.

 

[Sacky]

To any Cleriths who might be lurking, or actively seeking to start engaging here, know that I think I can assuredly say a lot of us would and do welcome you to come here and to have conversations. Actual conversations though.

We regularly have @LunarTarotGirl and @Maidenofwar actively engaging in all manner of dialogue and topics discussed here, and it would be lovely to have more people who love and enjoy Clerith to be able to come and join discussions.

Whether you perceive this thread to be skewed or toxic or not, at the end of the day this is one of the very few places I’ve personally found where healthy and respectful debate is not only encouraged, but actively preserved by all of us here. We want and desire these meaningful conversations, debates, and discussions.

And if any of you have taken the time to read through several pages back from the start of February 29th and even further back, you’d see that is exactly what has been taking place.

I’ve been around since that time and have found ourselves near always maintaining a respectful level of civility and fairness, whilst not tolerating anything that might unnecessarily derail the conversations that may be taking place or the nature of what we are looking for here, which is as I’ve said healthy discussion.

We’ve had our disagreements here. We’ve shared our personal insights that may not align with someone else’s. But we respectfully agree to disagree and choose to actually discuss our various readings further, without resorting to shooting each other down if we don’t like what someone else is saying, as long as everything is being argued in good faith, with a clear and reasonable understanding that we aren’t just going to accept anyone coming in here and saying someone is wrong, and that they are right. What meaningful discussion arises from that?

And importantly there isn’t tolerance for bad faith arguments on either side here. There have been instances where those who favour Cloti haven’t been arguing in good faith, nor contributing anything meaningful to the discussion other than to be rude to others and not actually engage respectfully in disagreeing with them. And no one on here was going to put up with it. Same with any Cleriths or anyone who doesn’t even ship characters, if they come in and start to just be rude or dismissive without providing a reasonable argument then most here would be quick to try and resolve that.

There is a lot of evidence that when people do come here, they are quick to respect the fact that for hundreds of pages now, there has been a remarkable maintenance of this level of healthy respect. And we encourage everyone to understand that, and welcome everyone to help contribute in this way.

There is a lot of patience here in that respect. There can be a lot of worry or concern, anxiety expressed, and I am guilty of this myself and readily admit to finding myself caught in a very dooming state of mind from time to time. Which is why this place is a sanctuary for conversation. Because the large number of us here all choose to not only debate but to help each other come to different understandings, alternate viewpoints we may not have considered, even if we disagree, our appreciation of the game can be enriched from these insights from other people.

Fundamentally as well this is a place where, I think it’s safe to say, there is an appreciation for and love even for all of the characters being discussed here. That I think is essential in why the conversations here have been as dynamic and meaningful as they have been.

I think most of us want more opinions here honestly, from neutrals, cleriths, both, even people who don't care at all, though arguing in good faith, Theres a lot of different viewpoints that are interesting that when you have your biases, you don't think about. Like the red dress, i never thought of that scene as much but hearing here, a lot of people love that scene. Then, when thinking about it, i see why it proves Cloud finds Aerith attractive, which we never really had before for anyone. We also get this type of scene for Tifa in costa del sol. It's fun to discuss because you find out how people view a scene differently and you can also come to a new interpretation that neither person had by just discussing and thinking about random scenes more.

 

[nars305]

I don't know how that blank face he shows Aerith during the whole conversation there is a confirmation of jealousy in any fashion. Also him calling Zack a loser just comes off to me as him trying to make her feel better about the situation in general, not him acting jealously.

For me the blank face was just too focused on. Like it wanted me to understand Cloud’s intention with what he was asking.

Cloud’s persona is a loner-type tough guy, but he’s not stoic. They make him very expressive. If they wanted to show that he is jealous then maybe they forgot to animate it.

It’s a scene special to Aerith. It’s unfortunate it gets drowned by the LTD and is made to be about Cloud’s feelings. She says being in Gongaga is a lot, she can’t help but follow Zack’s dad who looks like him, and she can’t say she doesn’t still like him. It was a sad moment for her where Cloud and Tifa comfort her.

 

[Yoru]

Oh shit! My story reminds me of something that intrigued me in the game's intro. I need your opinions.

When Cloud narrates the Nibelheim flashback, there are little moments when Tifa also steps in to tell her side of the story. This creates little exchanges of glances between the two of them from time to time, indicating to us, the player, that they don't have quite the same memories.

The part that intrigues me is when they tell us that after the events at the reactor, they returned to the village and Sephiroth left for the manor. Tifa tells us that the mayor was upset because Sephiroth had cancelled the dinner that had been planned, and that her father had to "suffer" the consequences.

Video with timestamp

Why is Cloud so surprised ? He's really like "What are you talking about?" and even Tifa is surprised by his reaction.

 

[Rin]

Why is Cloud so surprised ?

I think it's because he wasn't aware that there was a SOLDIER dinner in the first place. And I have a personal theory that Zack skipped the dinner to go to Cloud's instead (hence the entire thing being cancelled and the Mayor complaining).

For the latter, I believe this because in Crisis Core there's an email to Zack from Cloud asking him to come over to meet his mom. And when Cloud remembers going home to see his mom, Jenova keeps interfering and cutting his memories up as if she's trying to cut someone's presence out of them.

 

[Yoru]

I think it's because he wasn't aware that they were as a SOLDIER dinner in the first place. And I have a personal theory that Zack skipped the dinner to go to Cloud's instead (hence the entire thing being cancelled and the Mayor complaining).

For the latter, I believe this because in Crisis Core there's an email to Zack from Cloud asking him to come over to meet his mom. And when Cloud remembers going home to see his mom, Jenova keeps interfering and cutting his memories up as if she's trying to cut someone's presence out of them.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Like the red dress, i never thought of that scene as much but hearing here, a lot of people love that scene.

The red dress scene was too over the top for me that it felt surreal. But I'm totally biased anyway because I liked her pink dresses more, lol. Sorry! but Aerith was super cute in them.

I think it's because he wasn't aware that they were as a SOLDIER dinner in the first place. And I have a personal theory that Zack skipped the dinner to go to Cloud's instead (hence the entire thing being cancelled and the Mayor complaining).

For the latter, I believe this because in Crisis Core there's an email to Zack from Cloud asking him to come over to meet his mom. And when Cloud remembers going home to see his mom, Jenova keeps interfering and cutting his memories up as if she's trying to cut someone's presence out of them.

Omg, yes. I wanna see this in P3. Let it happen.

 

[nars305]

Oh shit! My story reminds me of something that intrigued me in the game's intro. I need your opinions.

When Cloud narrates the Nibelheim flashback, there are little moments when Tifa also steps in to tell her side of the story. This creates little exchanges of glances between the two of them from time to time, indicating to us, the player, that they don't have quite the same memories.

The part that intrigues me is when they tell us that after the events at the reactor, they returned to the village and Sephiroth left for the manor. Tifa tells us that the mayor was upset because Sephiroth had cancelled the dinner that had been planned, and that her father had to "suffer" the consequences.

Video with timestamp

Why is Cloud so surprised ?

Hmm…it really does make you scratch your head.

The only thing I can think of is maybe Cloud ate with them, but then he hears the mayor wanted to eat with SOLDIERS, which of course he wasn’t.

Edit: Nevermind, Rin is a loremaster hahaha