SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

yeah you are right, that would make sense as to why that conversation happens there during Aerith's date. Still confused why Cloud wanted to talk about Aerith's relationship on Tifa date. Unless he was scared and didn't know what to talk about.

it happens after he gets caught staring at her so i think he was just unsure what to talk about and mentioned the thing that was on his mind to break the tension.

 

[abzy1200]

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

Because it's an important subject that he entrusted to Tifa beforehand.

They can't do it when they're "just walking" because the group is around, and Aerith is part of said group.

The subject of "My late best friend is Aerith's dead ex and she doesn't know he's dead, yet she still harbors feelings for him." is unbelievably sensitive.

Plus, are you trying to imply that Cloud got jealous? Because that's implying that Cloud would use Tifa as a doormat and is a womanizer, I'm sure you don't want to have a guy like that as the "hero" in the story.

 

[null]

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

I don’t like these shipper labels to begin with. They’re like political parties. None of us should have to answer for the fringe just because we agree on a single topic.

 

[imach0c0]

Because it's an important subject that he entrusted to Tifa beforehand.

They can't do it when they're "just walking" because the group is around, and Aerith is part of said group.

The subject of "My late best friend is Aerith's dead ex and she doesn't know he's dead, yet she still harbors feelings for him." is unbelievably sensitive.

Plus, are you trying to imply that Cloud got jealous? Because that's implying that Cloud would use Tifa as a doormat and is a womanizer, I'm sure you don't want to have a guy like that as the "hero" in the story.

Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.

 

[Someonesbunny]

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

Don’t forget that Cloud’s memory (and his lapses in memory) are important to Cloud himself. Seeking confirmation that what he shared matches with reality is also important to him.

If there is ever made to be canon ships for the LTD, imo that would weaken the overall story and experience. That to me is why there are options for other characters to date. I say this because at the end of the day, it's a side quest. Who ends up with who isn't the main point of FFVII, and imo it shouldn't be.

The story, imo, works whether or not anyone has romantic feelings for anyone else.

I've now heard both Cleriths and Clotis insist that their ship is canon and the other side just "doesn't care about FFVII or its characters" and honestly that attitude, from both sides, is getting really bothersome.

Not to mention, does whether or not the ship is canon really matter that much to your ship? I'm sure the validation would always be really nice, but you can still enjoy your ship all you want either way.

One discussion I'd love to have more of is the potential validity of Aerti or Clarret. Let's give love to the gay ships just as much as the straight ones I say!

Once again, the LTD isn’t about shipping, it’s about canonicity. The linchpin of Cloud’s personal story arc is the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence which heavily involves his own romantic subplot with Tifa. The fact of the matter is that their shared connection (which has been presented as a romantic connection in multiple sources such as the novels by Nojima) is the key to the conclusion of that arc.

Additionally, the centrality of her perception of him to prove his own existence is in full display from the OG to the Remake - Sephiroth weaponizes this to undo him and so Tifa must remake or resurrect him with this in turn.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Yoru]

Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.

It could be an interpretation.

In my opinion, if they really wanted to imply Cloud is jealous, they would have kept Tifa ouf of the conversation.
But her being here and reacted like that is to show us the girls are talking about Zack in private and that Aerith must have told her how important he is. Tifa wouldn't be angry otherwise. She saw him just once in her life.

She was pissed Cloud spoke badly about Zack, because she knows he's someone important to Aerith.

So in the end, imo this is just to show how Cloud is out of context. To make the player doubt. "Does he remember or not ? Yeah nope, Cloud would never talk about Zack like that."

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

And the more time goes by, the harder it is for me to give credit to Clerith (not the fans, I'm talking about those who aren't here to debate) because, in my opinion, it's not at all what this FF7 universe is telling us in 2024.

But I love Aerith. And yes I ship her with Zack. Not because I want her out of the way. It's just that's how I've been attached to her with the years.

So yes, we have to disagree but I'm more than happy to have you around to talk about FF7 !

Oh I already agree there. I saw a shift in vision with the how the devs talked about the romance aspect around more than a decade ago. I would say around ACC. I actually don't mind Zerith at all either. I look forward to whatever they do with Aerith in general despite my criticisms. I also think the devs aren't changing course any time soon with their narrative especially now. I'm just always very careful not to say things definitely because we never know what could happen. But basically nothing needs to be proven because the story is already being told. I just think the mysteries left are still going to have us debate a little longer till we get to the end.

But likewise. It's is a pleasure to talk about one of my favorite games of all time with you! ^^

 

[abzy1200]

Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.

Yet again more abysmal characterisation of Cloud. He is completely deadpan there.

Once again, the LTD isn’t about shipping, it’s about canonicity. The linchpin of Cloud’s personal story arc is the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence which heavily involves his own romantic subplot with Tifa. The fact of the matter is that their shared connection (which has been presented as a romantic connection in multiple sources such as the novels by Nojima) is the key to the conclusion of that arc.

Yep, this isn't just a bunch of internet noise where people are just insisting which ship is better. It's about accepting the story as it's presented.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.

Could this be a remnant of the dialogue option in OG and that's what people are thinking of? That basically lets you choose being jealous as an option? Though I will point out the Ultimania for Remake also implies Cloud feels some type of complicated way when imagining Aerith bringing him to a place where she was with another guy before in the park date.

I don't know if I would say jealous outright but maybe he doesn't know what to make of the situation and doesn't know what he should feel about a girl talking about her ex to him. Then he gets mad to find out said ex apparently ghosted her because he is close to her by Gongaga?
I don't know.

I think it might be part of setting up Cloud not knowing how he feels about Zack as this is the main part of the mystery. And maybe setting up the question as well of how does he feel about Aerith and her whole dilemma. Which is pretty heavy when you think about it. He probably doesn't know how to think.

 

[Rin]

I also think that what Cloud says about Zack in Gongaga is a normal friend response. You befriend a girl who keeps talking about some dude she's not over, constantly finds ways to bring him up, and then you learn the man "ghosted" her and his parents.... So ya, you call him a loser and tell your friend to move on lmao.

Is it the emotionally mature thing to say and do? No because Cloud isn't emotionally mature but that's what makes his response so realistic.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

So, you guys already handled this pretty dang well, so I'll keep this simple...

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

False A goodly number of the folk in this thread don't hate anyone at all, just their facetious horse shit. Those of us who do feel real hate, hate the CAltists who shovel said horse shit, not Cleriths.

 

[Elkazor]

Cloud joined the army to impress Tifa, snapped out of his mako poisioning by just seeing her face, in Rebirth he went back into his catatonic state until he realized Tifa was still alive after the mako pool incident. Only one girl gets a kiss at the GS. Tifa realizes he loves her in the Lifestream, they have sex under the highwind, they live together, sleep in the same bed and raise children while Aerith and Zack are shown to be together in the Lifestream.

How are there no canon couples? And how would it weaken the story to confirm the couples? Romance absolutely can have no place in a story, but when you base the hero's adventure off impressing a girl he is over the moon for, and then he continues the story by her side, well, the romance has its place and it matters.

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.

Once again, the LTD isn’t about shipping, it’s about canonicity. The linchpin of Cloud’s personal story arc is the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence which heavily involves his own romantic subplot with Tifa. The fact of the matter is that their shared connection (which has been presented as a romantic connection in multiple sources such as the novels by Nojima) is the key to the conclusion of that arc.

Additionally, the centrality of her perception of him to prove his own existence is in full display from the OG to the Remake - Sephiroth weaponizes this to undo him and so Tifa must remake or resurrect him with this in turn

If LTD is about canonicity, then doesn't that mean that once there is confirmation of canon one way or the other, that this thread is officially closed and everyone packs their bags and goes home?
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah I don't find anything wrong with the implication Cloud might be a bit jealous, like LunarTarotGirl said factoring in OG Gongaga, and what Ultimania said with the park thing, but the Gongaga and the date are separate scenes, so while I might say oh Cloud fancies Aerith some and he's a little bit jealous here maybe in Gongaga, the take from extremists he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous is well ...

 

[GamerSkull]

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.



If LTD is about canonicity, then doesn't that mean that once there is confirmation of canon one way or the other, that this thread is officially closed and everyone packs their bags and goes home?
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.

Personally, I do want the LTD to end, regardless of which girl is picked. Debating is all well and good but there does need to be some sort of conclusion. A debate that lasts the end of time is actually not fulfilling at all. Why debate if there is no answer in the first place?

The worst part of it is that it actually promotes more flame wars than it does a healthy discussion. Many of the aforementioned CTs and CAs use bad faith arguments that inevitably piss off the other side. If a lane is picked and decided, one side does lose. But that at least opens it up to be done for good and they can peacefully enjoy their ship in fanon, again regardless of which girl is picked.

Sometimes, people just want closure.

I respect your stance but I actually disagree. And to be honest, I think it's perfectly understandable why you have your stance, it's just not I something want.

As for platonic argument, the issue I have with this is everything that comes after the OG. If Cloud is to live with Tifa in a family unit, with Denzel and Marlene, then the idea that they are platonic kind of makes it hard to swallow. Tifa will never be able to actually move on a find someone else if Cloud's around because she will always think she has a chance with him. And I think we are kidding ourselves if we think Tifa only likes Cloud platonically. It actually kind of muddies their whole dynamic post-AC, in my opinion. It's unreal to think that Cloud would continue to live with her while still being interested in reuniting with Aerith, seems very unfair and also romanticizes the idea that one can never have a fulfilling life with another person if a loved one dies. Which ultimately, I do not think is the message of FF7.

That's just my perspective.

 

[nars305]

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.

I don’t really think it’s a debate. *There are just people who refuse to accept the narrative.

I have only been aware of the LTD for less than a month. Never played FF7 until remake. I was shocked there was this war going on when there is so much in the game and novels that spell it out about Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Rin]

Yeah I don't find anything wrong with the implication Cloud might be a bit jealous, like LunarTarotGirl said factoring in OG Gongaga, and what Ultimania said with the park thing, but the Gongaga and the date are separate scenes, so while I might say oh Cloud fancies Aerith some and he's a little bit jealous here maybe in Gongaga, the take from extremists he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous is well ...

Yeah, I definitely think Cloud has a "What? You knew and dated a different SOLDIER guy? What do you mean I'm not special?" type of jealousy whenever Aerith brings Zack up bc he has a massive inferiority complex (which is alluded to by Biggs in Zack's world as well) but to say he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous of Zack is such a strange way of thinking of things. But then again we do call them extremists for a reason, I guess

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah, I definitely think Cloud has a "What? You knew and dated a different SOLDIER guy? What do you mean I'm not special?" type of jealousy whenever Aerith brings Zack up bc he has a massive inferiority complex (which is alluded to by Biggs in Zack's world as well) but to say he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous of Zack is such a strange way of thinking of things. But then again we do call them extremists for a reason, I guess

What do you mean about not feeling special? Are you saying the jealousy is coming from him wanting to be the only soldier VS a romantic implication?

 

[GamerSkull]

I think the biggest issue is... the moment anyone says "I actually think it's not up for interpretation, and this is the canon. Here's my evidence" the other side labels them as toxic Clotis/Cleriths.

The thing about the LTD is that it is a debate, and debates require evidence, reason, argumentation, rebuttal. You are, by participating, already claiming that one is canon over the other by default. A "debate" does kind of force you to pick a side after all.

 

[imach0c0]

I don’t really think it’s a debate. *There are just people who refuse to accept the narrative.

I have only been aware of the LTD for less than a month. Never played FF7 until remake. I was shocked there was this war going on when there is so much in the game and novels that spell it out about Cloud and Tifa.

Its interesting you say that. From the streamers I have seen who know nothing of FF7 and started with remake/rebirth only, seem to interpret that CT and ZA is a thing.

 

[GamerSkull]

What do you mean about not feeling special? Are you saying the jealousy is coming from him wanting to be the only soldier VS a romantic implication?

I think @Rin is saying that Cloud doesn't like to be compared to others. Which Aerith does unintentionally.

It's pretty in line with what we know about Cloud.

 

[imach0c0]

I think @Rin is saying that Cloud doesn't like to be compared to others. Which Aerith does unintentionally.

It's pretty in line with what we know about Cloud.

Got it, thanks. In Gongaga, I don't think Aerith is comparing Cloud to Zack. She just says maybe she likes him. If Cloud is jealous in this scene, for what reason would he be?

 

[Rin]

What do you mean about not feeling special? Are you saying the jealousy is coming from him wanting to be the only soldier VS a romantic implication?

It's a mixture of both. Growing up, he thought he was better than everyone else. To be a first class SOLDIER you have to be "the best of the best." In his current delusions, he reached that legendary title and it means everything to him even if he hates Shinra now.

For a while, everyone's fawning over him, including Aerith for being a "cool" ex-SOLDIER. But then, as his time with Aerith comes to an end, she brings him to a park where she used to actively hang out with her ex-boyfriend who was also a first class SOLDIER. And thus his illusion of being special is shattered because Aerith has already experienced hanging around "the best of the best". I believe this is why the devs say his feelings are complicated in this moment.

So, let's say he was starting to consider Aerith a real romantic option.... Now all of a sudden she's talking about some other dude who had the same job AND title as him. Of course he's jealous. Suddenly, what he thought was a new and exciting experience for her is actually not new at all. He's being compared to someone else that he doesn't know and his existence isn't "special" but could perhaps even be mundane--which is his greatest fear.

 

[Rose Alive]

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.

I can't see many of the scenes working if you take away Cloud's feelings for Tifa though, like the Lifestream scene.

And canon won't stop people from interpreting scenes a certain way or discussing scenes. It doesn't weaken, but strengthens. I feel it's important to see what the writer wants us to see in any work even if we don't agree or if we see something differently.

Regarding the Highwind, I can't say what they'll do. I do think that it will be a romantic scene at least.

 

[SilverSisu]

If we truly are finally getting canonized pairings i wonder how is SE going to handle upcoming Clerith cultist meltdown?

I think the main reason why this love triangle has been so ambiguous is that SE didn't want to piss off 50% of the fandom because it would be bad for business and affect negatively to sales and bottom line.

I think i noticed someone mentioning devs statements on how they want to remove this ambiguity. Can anyone provide me a link to these statements? I'd like to see them myself. I'm really interested because if that is really happening there is going to be a massive meltdown and shitstorm when part 3 is released.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think the biggest issue is... the moment anyone says "I actually think it's not up for interpretation, and this is the canon. Here's my evidence" the other side labels them as toxic Clotis/Cleriths.

The thing about the LTD is that it is a debate, and debates require evidence, reason, argumentation, rebuttal. You are, by participating, already claiming that one is canon over the other by default. A "debate" does kind of force you to pick a side after all.

I kind of want to add to this.

From my perspective, anyone that is truly neutral would probably not participate in a "debate", aside from perhaps considering it fun. But even in this scenario they would still have to pick a side for debate's sake. Otherwise, what they would be doing is more akin to something that would be seen in the Club threads, as those are more a celebration of the ships.

For example, take the Rebirth spoilers thread. That place is one big debate over what the overall direction of the story is. In going there, you can clearly see that sides have been picked and you don't find much in the way of neutrality.