SPOILERS Avalanche cells and structure (open-spoilers discussion)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's kind of a shame Rufus didn't arrive in time to stomp on his daddy's fingers.

I was wondering whether they'd continue to portray him as the secret mastermind of Avalanche Mark II, but then the Avalanche helicopter blew up when trying to rescue Cloud, so that seems unlikely.... Unless... It was the Whispers that blew it up in order to keep the plot on track.

 

[Makoeyes987]

At this point Rufus would hate AVALANCHE because they backstabbed him and tried to kill him.

So him lobbing a missile at one of their helicopters makes perfect sense.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They didn't. Fuhito did. By the end of BC, Fuhito has broken away from Avalanche more or less completely; in fact, the impression I received was that Avalanche had pretty much ceased to exist - aside from Fuhito, a few of his Ravens, and his fanatical quest for complete world destruction - and that Barret was the one who revived the name a few years later. The Remake shows us that Avalanche is still going strong and that Barret's cell is somewhat isolated from the mainstream.

 

[Theozilla]

Uh, Fuhito was only killed a couple of months before the start of FFVII’s story. Barret’s Avalanche cell has been active for way longer than that, as they state in the Remake Barret’s cell cut ties with HQ about a year ago.

So for the Remake, the greater Avalanche HQ probably involves more groups than just the parts Elfé and Fuhito were in charge of, since the organization (that Barret’s group isn’t formally with) is still active in the Remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And I doubt Rufus would be one to see such nuance of AVALANCHE cells or power struggles. The fact remains, the group took his money and in return, they attempted to take his life.

Rufus would hold a huge grudge against them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I know that.

Maybe Barret's cell just wasn't hardcore enough. Does he realise, I wonder, that the original Avalanche and its founder were every bit as much into human experimentation and planet destruction as Shinra?

All I'm saying is that it's begging a lot of questions and a lot of expansion of canon. BC makes it quite unequivocally clear that Fuhito, Shears and Elfe are in charge of the totality of Avalanche from start to finish, and that Rufus is funding them.

So either Barret bought into all of that, or he didn't know about it (maybe he wanted to join Avalanche but they rejected him, so he set up his own wannabe cell and borrowed their name?), or the Avalanche backstory in BC is not canon for the Remake.

If the BC backstory is still canon, then the only way the Barret we see in the Remake could have associated himelf with an organisation like Avalanche is if Fuhito and his cronies and human experiments had been expelled from the party before Barret joined. In which case, Rufus's grudge would be against Fuhito, not Avalanche per se.

 

[Theozilla]

I’m guessing the way the Remake is/will incorporate the BC Avalanche group is just make them large cell/portion of the Avalanche organization but not the totality of it. Simple enough I think.
Since they definitely aren’t just disregarding the BC stuff, as the other Avalanche member’s uniforms in the Remake are definitely adaptations of the BC Avalanche uniforms .

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuhito and his forces are dead by the time FFVII starts, and seeing as how most of the non-crazy members ditched AVALANCHE once Fuhito grabbed power, it makes sense that they'd regroup and continue waging war against Shinra upon Futhito's death.

Shalua Rui was always a hardcore anti-Shinra fighter who ditched AVALANCHE upon seeing what it became. That could easily be the new leader or someone important.

 

[Roger]

I think it'll be true in broadstrokes only, trying to assassinate the President is likely intended to be the most radical thing the group had done thus far. I can't believe the group that ostracised Barret for his intent to blow up Reactors had very nearly hijacked the Mako Canon and wiped Midgar of the face of the Planet altogether.

 

[LNK]

Fuhito and his forces are dead by the time FFVII starts, and seeing as how most of the non-crazy members ditched AVALANCHE once Fuhito grabbed power, it makes sense that they'd regroup and continue waging war against Shinra upon Futhito's death.

Shalua Rui was always a hardcore anti-Shinra fighter who ditched AVALANCHE upon seeing what it became. That could easily be the new leader or someone important.

Had no idea Shalua Rui was in BC. I just remember her from Dirge

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think it'll be true in broadstrokes only, trying to assassinate the President is likely intended to be the most radical thing the group had done thus far. I can't believe the group that ostracised Barret for his intent to blow up Reactors had very nearly hijacked the Mako Canon and wiped Midgar of the face of the Planet altogether.

The AVALANCHE that did those acts wouldn't be the same people fighting Shinra now. Shears is dead. Fuhito is dead. Elfe no longer exists and is back to living her true life. So there's big disconnect between who was running the show 6 years ago.

 

[Theozilla]

Shalua Rui could be a great candidate to show up in later Remake installments, especially since BC established her as the one who crafted Barret his gun-arm.

 

[Roger]

The AVALANCHE that did those acts wouldn't be the same people fighting Shinra now. Shears is dead. Fuhito is dead. Elfe no longer exists and is back to living her true life. So there's big disconnect between who was running the show 6 years ago.

They didn't die 6 years ago, they outlived Zack.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"seeing as how most of the non-crazy members ditched AVALANCHE once Fuhito grabbed power". Where did you get this information from, Mako? I've never seen it spelled out anywhere - namely, that there were TWO Avalanches in BC, one led by Fuhito and paid for by Rufus, and the other.... Somewhere, doing something. Fuhito, Shears and Elfe are the only leaders of Avalanche we ever see. Shalua Rui does eventually ditch Fuhito's Avalanche, it's true, but before she ditched him she supported him for quite a while.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. In BC, which is the sole source of any lore about pre-OG Avalanche, there is only one Avalanche and it is led by the mad scientist Fuhito. There isn't a mainstream Avalanche and a lunatic fringe Avalanche. Fuhito is a Hojo fanboy who experiments on human beings, happily wreaks mass murder, and is as careless of the lives of his underlings as Heidegger. That is the established nature and modus operandi of pre-OG Avalanche, from the start of BC right up until the grand finale a mere month before Cloud arrives in Midgar.

Do we really think Barret would join such an organisation? Obviously, no one thinks that.

Which means there will have to be substantial re-writing of the Avalanche backstory. Either that, or they will just shove BC in a closet and leave it there. I don't think too many people would mind.

Nevertheless, I think it's possible that it was the Whispers and not Rude and Reno who blew up the Avalanche helicopter, and here's why: Cloud and Co could not be allowed to escape the Shinra Building via helicopter. That's not canon fate. And as we have established, the Whispers are the canon police. The party has to have their iconic motorcycle chase and their "final" showdown with Sephiroth.

 

[Theozilla]

I doubt the Whispers are the ones responsible for downing the Avalanche helicopter. The scene pretty explicitly frames it as Rufus’ helicopter being the one responsible for shooting it down.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They didn't die 6 years ago, they outlived Zack.

What?

Those actions that you used as an example occurred 6 years before FFVII, during Before Crisis. And the people who lead those acts of war against Shinra are dead, except Elfe who is under a new identity and living a peaceful life with her family. So the connection the larger group of AVALANCHE in FFVII has to the one from Before Crisis is minimal, aside from their desire to trash Shinra.

"seeing as how most of the non-crazy members ditched AVALANCHE once Fuhito grabbed power". Where did you get this information from, Mako? I've never seen it spelled out anywhere - namely, that there were TWO Avalanches in BC, one led by Fuhito and paid for by Rufus, and the other.... Somewhere, doing something. Fuhito, Shears and Elfe are the only leaders of Avalanche we ever see. Shalua Rui does eventually ditch Fuhito's Avalanche, it's true, but before she ditched him she supported him for quite a while.

Because in Before Crisis' episodes there were numerous groups of individuals who hated Shinra that coalesced under AVALANCHE as they spread their war against Shinra and gained power. However, as shown with Shalua Rui, she abandoned AVALANCHE upon seeing what The Ravens were like with Fuhito as the leader. She continued fighting Shinra using her own methods and presumably her own allies. There were numerous other outfits that fought Shinra, and the Legendary Turk fought other groups that had it out for Shinra during his tenure with the company.

 

[Back To Black]

I didn't realize people were so attached to the "what a crew" line though.

I've cited it since leaving highschool. Whenever I start a new job and the boss shows me around the team I sometimes end with a '' What a crew '' Whoever picks up the reference usually kicks it off with me from the get go and we get on great.

If the boss is introducing someone else to the team of which I'm part of I'll introduce myself as the lowest job title I've ever had back in my college days, much to the confusion of my boss.

It's the small things that entertain me, clearly lol.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mako, what's your source for that info about Avalanche Mark I?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, what's your source for that info about Avalanche Mark I?

Before Crisis itself, Shalua appears in the game and meets the playable Turk post-timeskip.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

She is one person who joined Avalanche for the very specific reason of looking for her sister, stuck it out for as long as she could, and finally left Avalanche altogether when her conscience couldn't stand it any more; and also, when she realised they had zero interest in helping her find Shelke. There is no suggestion anywhere in the game that there is any Avalanche other than Fuhito's Avalanche. if you can prove me wrong I'll pay a forfeit.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shalua still claimed to be part of AVALANCHE all the way to Chapter 21. Yet she didn't recognize Fuhito's Raven Squad or the fact he was leading the overall group. Shalua identifies herself as an AVALANCHE member yet the Ravens don't recognize her or care. She was either part of another group, or at least a splinter group that acted independently from the one Fuhito was running. Even Shears recognized her and asked how she was doing since her last injuries. For her to be completely ignorant of the state of AVALANCHE at that time would imply she was dealing with her own group that was operating outside of the drama that gripped the main organization.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You're building quite a house of cards on one character's poorly translated dialogue. Shears left Fuhito's Avalanche before the time skip, so it's perfectly plausible that he and Shalua know one another from their time together in Fuhito's Avalanche. She claims to be Avalanche, but Shotgun immediately replies with, "So you were with Avalanche," which is ambiguous to say the least. It could mean Shalua used to be with Avalanche but left a while ago. I always interpreted her lack of knowledge of developments in Avalanche to mean that she'd left them some time earlier; however, she claimed to still be Avalanche to the Ravens so they wouldn't attack her. Even if she's not an active agent she's still sympathetic to the goal of destroying Shinra. I'm not claiming this as a water-tight interpretation, but it's no less plausible than yours. The fact that the Ravens don't recognise her is not proof that there must be a second Avalanche group. The Ravens have had their minds destroyed, they are incapable of recognising people or doing anything but following orders. Why would they care if they kill Avalanche operatives? Fuhito doesn't care either.

So, still no proof that there was definitely a second Avalanche organisation separate from Fuhito's.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Considering there are multitudes of anti-Shinra groups operating in the world, how is it hard to fathom there would be differing groups of likeminded people who function as cells of AVALANCHE?

I don't think they had a monopoly on Anti-Shinra sentiment, after all, where did all the people who became apart of AVALANCHE come from, and what did they do when they weren't in the same area?

Shalua clearly had to have been doing something and working with someone to get the connections and battle scars she did. Fighting Shinra with another group.

Not every person would volunteer or surrender to become a Raven, either. So they had to go somewhere and do something.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Shalua Rui could be a great candidate to show up in later Remake installments, especially since BC established her as the one who crafted Barret his gun-arm.

Old Man Sakaki from "Episode:Barret" is the artisan who created Barret's gun-arm. Shalua had nothing to do with it.
---

EDIT: @LicoriceAllsorts Do you want me to split this discussion out into its own thread?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Thanks for the offer, but not really, I think this particular argument has pretty much run out of steam.