Deepground questions

[Clement Rage]

I'm not sure that Sephiroth would automatically be able to control anyone with Jenova cells, He can puppeteer Cloud, but Cloud can break free of it sometimes and we never see him take control of serving SOLDIER, just S Copies.

Aside: We see the Deepground SOLDIER in Dirge, in Nibelheim and DG itself. I'd call them a cut above the average DG grunt, just under the heeavy armoured guys.

AVALANCHE got to Sephiroth because he allowed it, he summoned an army to beat unconscious the team that was left behind. after your party tries cutting a path. How big that army is is unknown, but we can assume it was pretty tough even if not large.

If the Tsviets go alone into the crater, I don't think they even get to him. Azul, weak to magic, which the crater monsters have in spades, drops fast, Shelke can only survive if she goes for stealth, which she might.

Rosso and Weiss are the best fighters, but the monsters tend to have high physical resistance. Something like a Malboro or an Iron Giant could cause them big problems. I mean, they'd likely win, but it'd be a long hard battle, leaving them worn down by the time they got close to the core, and their personalities would prevent them from avoiding tough battles. I think its a safe assumption that they would engage Sephiroth, because they're both obsessed with being the most powerful beings in the world.

If the DG armies as a whole try to engage, they probably manage to cut a path for their bosses, and end up holding off Sephiroth's monsters while the Tsviets aim for the core. Shelke organises the rearguard (or dies quick in combat) Azul has no chance because magic, which leaves Sephy facing Rosso, Weiss and Nero. I don't think 'hacking the Lifestream' helps much here.

The big wildcard is Nero's stagnant lifestream, because I don't know if Sephiroth has an answer for that. If he doesn't, then the Tsviets win.

Otherwise, Nero isn't actually a great fighter, so if swirly black stuff can't destroy Sephiroth, he doesn't contribute much. I'm not sure he can teleport around the other Tsviets without killing them.

Nero aside, I feel like Sephiroth takes it. They could kill his first form, but the One Winged Angel form has too much hard hitting magic, and opens every fight with Wall, which takes the edge off most of their attacks.

Deepground are useless against AVALANCHE in the 'hunt' stage, they'd cause more problems than they'd solve. A Suicide Squad style Tsviet adventuring party is maybe workable, though, and if they meet Sephiroth when he's alone on the road they have a chance.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In regards to this hypothetical I do wanna mention this, since it was brought up.

Nero's abilities with darkness are derivative of stagnant lifestream. A naturally occurring offshot of Lifestream created by the planet. It still is nothing more than souls from the planet's cycle, merely blackened due to not being kept in the flow of life. "Souls wrought of terra corrupt." Stagnated and corrupted.

Sephiroth's abilities from Jenova subjugate spirit energy and allows him to absorb the knowledge therein. If Sephiroth was able to absorb the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients enough gain the knowledge and ability to utilize the Black Materia to summon Meteor, it stands to reason he's cognizant and aware of other aspects of the Planet. Namely, Chaos, Omega and Stagnant Lifestream. I don't think there's any reason at all for Sephiroth to be weak to, or afraid of the naturally occurring darkness that spawns from the planet. They're nothing but souls in the end that he'd be able to absorb and subjugate as well.

In AC, Sephiroth creates his own Negative Lifestream of darkness, composed of the dead from Geostigma who were unable to return to the planet. He controls this energy freely. A naturally occurring sub-set of spirit energy unable to find rest, does not sound like anything Sephiroth would be weak to. If anything, Nero could end up feeding Sephiroth's power because those kind of souls would probably be easy for Sephiroth to latch onto and absorb within himself.

The man became aware of the increase in spirits— they could be called the darkness of the heart— melding with the Lifestream. He cherished that lingering darkness. Even more so when he considered that the stigma he had left on the surface was what created it. He thought that he could possibly enjoy himself with that. Filling the Lifestream with this darkness.

The man hid himself within the life on the planet and traveled around the world, branding even more people with his stigma. On the surface there were many people who no longer had their normal lives, and at the man’s temptation the dark parts of their hearts grew even larger.

From Case of Lifestream Black. Aside from just aesthetic reasons, Sephiroth is attuned to darkness. His soul thrived on it. So I doubt that Sephiroth would find any reason at all to be threatened by Nero's darkness. Sephiroth's darkness is simply far greater.

And regards to what I mentioned earlier, Sephiroth wouldn't need to literally hijack someone with Jenova cells. The powers of Jenova afford him extraordinary powers of illusion and mind control by themselves. He could easily make someone see their comrades as enemies and confuse them into attacking each other. He could deceive untrained DG soldiers into turning their weapons on each other and slaughtering themselves. Kadaj in On the Way to a Smile is able to confuse people and appear to others as individuals close to them, seemingly shapeshifting and using powers of illusion to get close. Sephiroth would easily wreck havoc on the lesser trained soldiers who have no idea what powers he possessed. The entire Northern Crater area is surrounded by high levels of mako that could cause machines to go berserk, and weakminded people to lose control and go berserk as well. Sephiroth could easily use his powers to make any force that tried to encroach his 'base' go mad and deal with the consequences of trying to thwart him.

I'm not exactly sure how each Tsviet would necessarily fare individually, but I think in the end they would be no match for Sephiroth. I'll lay out my reasons below.

Azul is a bruiser who's single-minded focus on brute strength is hollow and easy to exploit. He was the first Tsviet to be defeated because he was arguably the weakest. Him being a behemoth-man-monster isn't really anything special, and Chaos Vincent was able to lay him low quite easily.

Rosso is extremely powerful. Not only is she extremely fast, she also has enhanced durability. She's extremely mentally unstable, however. She fell into despair and wanted to kill herself upon being defeated by Vincent. Regardless of what her battle prowess is, she seems like someone who could easily be tricked or driven mad to the point of attacking her own comrades for fun or even be tricked into joining Sephiroth and giving up on her very own life. Her mind is simply too broken and its probably why she never was allowed out on missions.

Nero is powerful but also extremely mentally unstable and co-dependent on Weiss. In fact, Nero hates humans with a passion, and loves only his brother. That hatred, that darkness in him, is very similar to Sephiroth. Nero doesn't seem like someone who would even care or want to help save the planet from Sephiroth. His heart wouldn't even be in the fight and he too probably would be confused or caught off-guard due to Sephiroth's powers.

Weiss is the only Tsviet that I think would have any chance of being capable of getting close to Sephiroth. And even then, he still would lose. He's strong, and a fighting prodigy. But that alone wouldn't be enough to stand up to a being like Sephiroth in FFVII, who is like a demi-god at this point. Sephiroth has the power of the planet and an extra terrestrial monster on his side. Weiss is a super-soldier with the power of mako, but that still falls short. Sephiroth's powers as a SOLDIER and inheritor of Jenova's will go beyond just being strong.

So yeah, between those weaknesses and Deepground not being the most teamwork focused group of super-human freaks, I don't see them being capable of overthrowing Sephiroth at all.

 

[Roger]

Actually we do. In Before Crisis episode 14 which introduces Azul.

The Turks were responsible with finding candidates for SOLDIER, and they had been assigned this task to make up for the losses that were incurred during the "incident" during the Wutai War. Which in turn led the Turks to Costa del Sol and finding a man obsessed with combat named Azul. The self-same individual who would later become the Tsviet in Deepground. Turks were also responsible for finding candidates for SOLDIER, which was actually stated by Cloud to Aerith when he first met her after he fell through her church and helped her elude Reno.

The Turks were the ones instigating a recruitment for new SOLDIER candidates and one of those candidates was Azul himself.

That is always the Turks official jon. It was hardly a recruitment drive that did anything to close the enormous difference in scope between Deepground and vanilla SOLDIER.

You must be referring to the fight she had with one in Multiplayer Mode Scene 8, right? Yes, the Restrictor parried her blows and stabbed her in the end but realize that that would not be enough to even come close to killing her. And given that she said she wanted to "play a little," that sparring match wasn't the full extent of her abilities as shown in Dirge of Cerberus. Given the abilities and power of Tsviets, the Tsviets are without question stronger than a SOLDIER. Restrictors are strong but the abilities wielded by Tsviets are beyond that. Hence why they need to have the chips in order to maintain order.

Even if Rosso was more powerful then the Restrictors, the Restrictors are still far more powerful then whatever Shinra was uselessly throwing at the Weapons before AVALANCHE defeated them.

Because while it may be a desperate situation, the inherent risk of having the Deepground Soldiers turning an already hopeless situation more hopeless is a very real prospect. Maybe like you said, sending a few wouldn't be that much of a risk but given the state of the world and the situations that unfolded, the entire prospect is not even considered. Why? Either Deepground were presumably so fucked up with the Tsviets overthrowing Restrictor that they were written off indefinitely, or they considered it and thought it was too dangerous on its own. But that's what happened. That's how the narrative unfolded.

It can't get more hopeless. There is a Meteor in the sky, headed for Earth that WILL kill everything and everyone lest Sephiroth is defeated.

Well the drain is pretty minimal since they just utilize Mako Reactor 0 and they're allowed leeway to seemingly exist and continue training. But what situation are they utilized for? Well we'll never know. If anything, they appear more like a science project experiment that's completely gone out of control and is now too big to shelve. And considering they reside right underneath the headquarters of Shinra and the center of Midgar, "nuking" them isn't really an option.

There are no gardeners or livestock at Deepground. just several times more people to feed then are still left alive in Dirge of Cerberus. Shinra has to be sending mountains of food.

Because that would be the time Shinra was in tact enough to feasibly deploy and control Deepground. By the time its determined the Northern Crater is Sephiroth's base, the world is under attack by Weapons, Hojo's gone completely rogue in his insanity, and Scarlet and Heidegger are dead. The entire chaos of that situation lends to what I earlier said would happen. Chaos would ensue and Deepground would either presumably go off on their own without further orders or botch the entire process and get defeated in an all out war against Sephiroth.

For the entire week that Tifa is in her coma, they know where Sephiroth, that the Planet is faced with certain destruction if he is not defeated by any means and Shinra is fighting the Weapons with everything they had (turn out they were holding 99% of their fighting capacity which all rests in Deepground)

I don't see this ending well.

I don't see how the Shinra execs had any reason to expect to be alive for another week if they don't do everything they can.

For one, the fact that they're a smaller group of people only utilizing personal weapons and their own materia, (the same rare materia that was presumably saved from Shinra's attempt to rocket it into Meteor or found along their journey) prevents them from drawing the full attention and wrath of Sephiroth and whatever monsters he controls in that cave. Infiltrating the Northern Crater to the presumed core of the planet is a lot more feasible of an undertaking with just 8 skilled individuals instead of an entire army. Because a massive army would only provoke an equivalent response from what resides in that Northern Cave.

Keep in mind, that the last time the Northern Crater area was explored by Shinra military operatives was around εуλ 0001 and εуλ 0002 during the war against Genesis and his copy army. The Lifestream and monsters that inhabited that space decimated the troops who explored the cave systems and made the Shinra machinery go haywire. The machine weaponry turned on the humans, and low level grunt troopers went mad from the mako and started killing each other. Those subsequent anomalous events happened with just the planet's own natural defense systems and presumably Minerva's will. What do you think would happen with Sephiroth controlling the will of the lifestream in the Northern Crater and being made aware that Shinra was making one last push to obstruct his plans of becoming one with everything?

Considering Sephiroth's powerful will and Jenova abilities, assuming that Deepground soldiers would be able to openly march into the caves there with their weaponry to engage with him is naive. Cloud and the others had to fight their way through a plethora of powerful and rare monsters of undetermined origin and only were allowed to engage with Sephiroth due to his own amusement and desire to "settle things." Shinra and Deepground would not find such a suitable opening or handicap. They would all be killed in all out war, either by the monsters that reside there, or by Sephiroth using the spirit energy to either sabotage/hijack the machinery they use and make it go berserk. His Jenova abilities would confuse and control the grunts, and the mako could drive them mad.

We don't see any proof that Sephiroth controls Jenova-type SOLDIERs outright. Everything else just tells me this would either fix or reduce the Deepground problem, if indeed Scarlet and Heidegger only views as a problem or fix the being dead in a week problem. If it doesn't, who cares?

Considering Weiss and Nero were incognito, and presumably supervised for such a limited scope mission, it's apparent that they're freed only under very careful, and controlled circumstances. What would they have to lose? Well they would stand to lose their limited control over their carefully guarded secrets which could lead to said secrets going berserk and destroying Shinra. Yeah, its the end of the world, but just because its the end of the world, throwing whatever you can and seeing what sticks isn't necessarily the best idea. The Tsviets hold no real loyalty to Shinra at all. They also are mentally unstable and looking to be freed by any means.

Again, the Deepground Soldiers and Tsviets were able to wrestle control from Restrictor within the limited and controlled environment of their imprisonment. You really believe that in the chaos of the surface that they would be incapable of going rogue and turning on Restrictor?

Shinra obviously held some sort of apprehension and hesitance in utilizing Deepground.

I don't see their supervision or this hyper controlled situation you speak off. They were out there on their own, faithfully following orders. And keeping the Restrictors down their in the Tvsiets home day in day out is the reason they were killed before either they or Deeoground could be of any use.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That is always the Turks official jon. It was hardly a recruitment drive that did anything to close the enormous difference in scope between Deepground and vanilla SOLDIER.

Considering the Turks literally took folks off the street to become SOLDIER in efforts to rebuild the numbers lost to Genesis and Shinra had an orphanage for children they deemed as having potential for SOLDIER and the Turks.. I really wouldn't put it past them or discount their efforts. Shinra found bodies to conscript into SOLDIER and made them comply. They either joined SOLDIER to earn a paycheck or they got tossed into Deepground and became experiments trapped in a living hell. One way or another however, Shinra rebuilt their ranks. That was the whole point of showcasing that chapter in BC.

Even if Rosso was more powerful then the Restrictors, the Restrictors are still far more powerful then whatever Shinra was uselessly throwing at the Weapons before AVALANCHE defeated them.

At the point of FFVII that it mattered however, most of the Restrictors were probably dead. The DC multiplayer mode storyline took place a little before the start of FFVII and concluded around the middle of FFVII when Midgar was evacuated. From that point, all hell broke loose and Deepground was sealed away due to the Meteorfall storms and collapse of the Shinra building. Restrictors were systematically being killed and replaced by Tsviets under the control of Weiss, and presumably, they were unable to even be reached by top-side Shinra at all.

It can't get more hopeless. There is a Meteor in the sky, headed for Earth that WILL kill everything and everyone lest Sephiroth is defeated.

Considering who exactly was running Deepground around that point in FFVII, yes. Yes it could get worst.

The colored Tsviets hold no loyalty or love for Shinra, or humanity for that matter. The Restrictors by the time Meteorfall was close had been overthrown and the inmates were running the asylum, so to speak. Letting them loose would only be freeing a bunch of superpowered madmen to unleash even more havoc on the planet. Opening Hell itself in hopes the devils would aid in putting out a fire doesn't seem like a good idea.

The Restrictors were sabotaged and overthrown because they couldn't realize Shelke was hacking into the Patricia supercomputer and injecting her memories into new-recruits before they got their brain chip implants. They were completely caught unaware by the fact Weiss was scheming under their nose to take over the place. I really don't see how Deepground would be effective outside, given the Restrictors failed at doing their job with the environment under their control.

There are no gardeners or livestock at Deepground. just several times more people to feed then are still left alive in Dirge of Cerberus. Shinra has to be sending mountains of food.

....You know, I can't really say for sure how they get provisions or anything like that in Deepground.

But hey...Maybe Deepground DID have livestock down there! After all, they did have a bunch of Dual Horns, Epiolnis, Bizarre Bugs and vegetation down there in their training environments... Maybe they bred those monsters not just for training, but also for meat. And who's to say they DIDN'T grow their own vegetables

For the entire week that Tifa is in her coma, they know where Sephiroth, that the Planet is faced with certain destruction if he is not defeated by any means and Shinra is fighting the Weapons with everything they had (turn out they were holding 99% of their fighting capacity which all rests in Deepground)

I don't see how the Shinra execs had any reason to expect to be alive for another week if they don't do everything they can.

And during that whole week, the Tsviets were overthrowing Restrictors and presumably replacing them. For all we know, Deepground was in total chaos and was not even reachable given the fact Restrictors weren't there to give proper status reports or updates on the situation. They were all dead.

We don't see any proof that Sephiroth controls Jenova-type SOLDIERs outright. Everything else just tells me this would either fix or reduce the Deepground problem, if indeed Scarlet and Heidegger only views as a problem or fix the being dead in a week problem. If it doesn't, who cares?

Well, Sephiroth wouldn't need to just outright control them. His illusionary powers and ability to distort reality and the minds of others would be dangerous enough. And again, considering how outright nuts and nihilistic the Tsviets are... What you're proposing is opening Pandora's Box in hopes of finding an answer to stop a meteor strike. Opening Pandora's Box would not yield any answers and only serve to pile on more problems.

Trusting a group of soldiers with hatred of all humans and a grudge against Shinra would not be a trusted force.. To fight under Shinra to protect the planet.

Desperate times do indeed make strange bed-fellows, but hoping into bed with a face-eating tiger still results in your face getting eaten.

I don't see their supervision or this hyper controlled situation you speak off. They were out there on their own, faithfully following orders. And keeping the Restrictors down their in the Tvsiets home day in day out is the reason they were killed before either they or Deeoground could be of any use.

They faithfully were following orders because they were under restriction. Nero has to have his darkness sealed and restricted 100% to prevent him from X-Zoning anyone in his vicinity. Weiss has to have a time limit virus kept in his body on standby to prevent him from getting cheeky due to how strong he is. The fact they were in disguise and not even manifesting their powers, speaks to how under wraps and controlled they were in that scene.

And yeah, you're right about the Restrictors being killed because they were just there all the time. They also got lax and arrogant. But considering the main goal Shinra had with keeping them there was to ensure Deepground would not escape unless told to, they did their job effectively. Deepground Soldier stayed buried for years until they clawed their way out on their own due to the power finally going down.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The big wildcard is Nero's stagnant lifestream, because I don't know if Sephiroth has an answer for that. If he doesn't, then the Tsviets win.

Otherwise, Nero isn't actually a great fighter, so if swirly black stuff can't destroy Sephiroth, he doesn't contribute much. I'm not sure he can teleport around the other Tsviets without killing them.

He should be able to if he doesn't leave them in there for long. Yuffie was taken into Nero's darkness for a moment and survived since Vincent was able to pull her out.

In regards to this hypothetical I do wanna mention this, since it was brought up.

Nero's abilities with darkness are derivative of stagnant lifestream. A naturally occurring offshot of Lifestream created by the planet. It still is nothing more than souls from the planet's cycle, merely blackened due to not being kept in the flow of life. "Souls wrought of terra corrupt." Stagnated and corrupted.

Sephiroth's abilities from Jenova subjugate spirit energy and allows him to absorb the knowledge therein. If Sephiroth was able to absorb the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients enough gain the knowledge and ability to utilize the Black Materia to summon Meteor, it stands to reason he's cognizant and aware of other aspects of the Planet. Namely, Chaos, Omega and Stagnant Lifestream. I don't think there's any reason at all for Sephiroth to be weak to, or afraid of the naturally occurring darkness that spawns from the planet. They're nothing but souls in the end that he'd be able to absorb and subjugate as well.

In AC, Sephiroth creates his own Negative Lifestream of darkness, composed of the dead from Geostigma who were unable to return to the planet. He controls this energy freely. A naturally occurring sub-set of spirit energy unable to find rest, does not sound like anything Sephiroth would be weak to. If anything, Nero could end up feeding Sephiroth's power because those kind of souls would probably be easy for Sephiroth to latch onto and absorb within himself.

It's fair to say that Seph may have gained some knowledge of how to contend with that sort of challenge, but it's equally fair to say that he may not. We really can't be sure of much where the properties of stagnant Lifestream are concerned except that it definitely has some alternative properties to the regular stuff.

It kills people enshrouded in it fairly quickly and if it infects the bodies of living things containing pure Lifestream, it makes them discorporate (see: Grimoire Valentine). From what little we see of it, it almost behaves like it's an anti-Lifestream, with the two negating one another when they come together.

For all we know, it may have been just what the doctor ordered to take out someone like Sephiroth hopped up on regular Lifestream.

Azul is a bruiser who's single-minded focus on brute strength is hollow and easy to exploit. He was the first Tsviet to be defeated because he was arguably the weakest.

Rosso actually died first, but yeah, she was rated a higher threat level than Azul.

And during that whole week, the Tsviets were overthrowing Restrictors and presumably replacing them. For all we know, Deepground was in total chaos and was not even reachable given the fact Restrictors weren't there to give proper status reports or updates on the situation. They were all dead.

Or all of that may not have gone down yet.

They faithfully were following orders because they were under restriction.

This would presumably also apply to an eventuality where they're sent into the crater.

 

[Roger]

Considering the Turks literally took folks off the street to become SOLDIER in efforts to rebuild the numbers lost to Genesis and Shinra had an orphanage for children they deemed as having potential for SOLDIER and the Turks.. I really wouldn't put it past them or discount their efforts. Shinra found bodies to conscript into SOLDIER and made them comply. They either joined SOLDIER to earn a paycheck or they got tossed into Deepground and became experiments trapped in a living hell. One way or another however, Shinra rebuilt their ranks. That was the whole point of showcasing that chapter in BC.

And then the people from that recruitment mission ended up in Deepground.

At the point of FFVII that it mattered however, most of the Restrictors were probably dead. The DC multiplayer mode storyline took place a little before the start of FFVII and concluded around the middle of FFVII when Midgar was evacuated. From that point, all hell broke loose and Deepground was sealed away due to the Meteorfall storms and collapse of the Shinra building. Restrictors were systematically being killed and replaced by Tsviets under the control of Weiss, and presumably, they were unable to even be reached by top-side Shinra at all.

Then Deepground is insane on a level Dirge of Cerberus never bothers to portray. Meteor is as much their problem as anyone else. They don't want to die having never seen the open air.

Considering who exactly was running Deepground around that point in FFVII, yes. Yes it could get worst.

The colored Tsviets hold no loyalty or love for Shinra, or humanity for that matter. The Restrictors by the time Meteorfall was close had been overthrown and the inmates were running the asylum, so to speak. Letting them loose would only be freeing a bunch of superpowered madmen to unleash even more havoc on the planet. Opening Hell itself in hopes the devils would aid in putting out a fire doesn't seem like a good idea.

How is Deepground hell, the soldiers therein devils but Sephiroth and Meteor, already mostly completed in his plan to kill everyone "a fire". I feel like your comparison is rather unfair.

The Restrictors were sabotaged and overthrown because they couldn't realize Shelke was hacking into the Patricia supercomputer and injecting her memories into new-recruits before they got their brain chip implants. They were completely caught unaware by the fact Weiss was scheming under their nose to take over the place. I really don't see how Deepground would be effective outside, given the Restrictors failed at doing their job with the environment under their control.

Hacking into stuff is what Shelke does. Weiss and Shelke are the only ones with the capacity to regulate what either of them are doing. Shinra trained them to do this, even though Shinra themselves are the only ones with a computer system on the Planet. That's a choice Shinra decided to make willingly. Got nothing to do with the Restrictors.

....You know, I can't really say for sure how they get provisions or anything like that in Deepground.

But hey...Maybe Deepground DID have livestock down there! After all, they did have a bunch of Dual Horns, Epiolnis, Bizarre Bugs and vegetation down there in their training environments... Maybe they bred those monsters not just for training, but also for meat. And who's to say they DIDN'T grow their own vegetables

There are only SOLDIERS down there and all they do every day is fight, this we have been told.

Well, Sephiroth wouldn't need to just outright control them. His illusionary powers and ability to distort reality and the minds of others would be dangerous enough. And again, considering how outright nuts and nihilistic the Tsviets are... What you're proposing is opening Pandora's Box in hopes of finding an answer to stop a meteor strike. Opening Pandora's Box would not yield any answers and only serve to pile on more problems.

Trusting a group of soldiers with hatred of all humans and a grudge against Shinra would not be a trusted force.. To fight under Shinra to protect the planet.

Desperate times do indeed make strange bed-fellows, but hoping into bed with a face-eating tiger still results in your face getting eaten.

Deepground wants to survive. In FFVII they were in situation where killing Sephiroth was the only way to attain survival, Shinra actively safeguarded Sephiroth from most of Shinra own's fighting force.

They faithfully were following orders because they were under restriction. Nero has to have his darkness sealed and restricted 100% to prevent him from X-Zoning anyone in his vicinity. Weiss has to have a time limit virus kept in his body on standby to prevent him from getting cheeky due to how strong he is. The fact they were in disguise and not even manifesting their powers, speaks to how under wraps and controlled they were in that scene.

They were dispatched to capture Genesis, not knowing what condition he'd be in. Otherwise they could have sent ANYONE. The only reason to send Nero and Weiss to do anything is because they are powerful. Fighting is the only use they have. They were expected to fight. Shinra was fine with this.

And yeah, you're right about the Restrictors being killed because they were just there all the time. They also got lax and arrogant. But considering the main goal Shinra had with keeping them there was to ensure Deepground would not escape unless told to, they did their job effectively. Deepground Soldier stayed buried for years until they clawed their way out on their own due to the power finally going down.

But Deepground itself exists because Shinra wants to put them to use. And the fact that the multiplayer storyline starts of just before FFVII tell us that they were still receiving new manpower, instead of sending those people to regular SOLDIER as of just before FFVII. They were still a project Shinra was choosing to invest ever more resources in.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And the fact that the multiplayer storyline starts of just before FFVII tell us that they were still receiving new manpower, instead of sending those people to regular SOLDIER as of just before FFVII. They were still a project Shinra was choosing to invest ever more resources in.

This strikes me as a particularly noteworthy observation. If Shin-Ra wanted to close the door on Deepground, it doesn't make sense to keep sending people down there.

They could have flooded the place or filled it with poisonous gas or ... just anything that wasn't adding more troops.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This has all been very interesting. Yet I fear the truth about Deepground can be summed up in one sentence:

Roger: There is no good explanation for them.

BC is bad; I can't argue with that; but even Avalanche Mark I makes more sense than Deepground does. Ever Project Gillian makes more sense than Deepground does. What I do with parts of the Compilation that are just too improbable to reconcile with the main narrative is, I headcanon that they were a character's dream. The whole of Dirge of Cerberus is just a nightmare Vincent had after walking down the streets of Edge one day and being taken by surprise by the strength of his sexual attraction to a random underage girl who happened to be passing by.

 

[Shademp]

The whole of Dirge of Cerberus is just a nightmare Vincent had after walking down the streets of Edge one day and being taken by surprise by the strength of his sexual attraction to a random underage girl who happened to be passing by.

I'm definitely among the people to immediately admit that Deepground makes no sense and that Dirge of Cerberus is a game that ranges from bad to mediocre.

However, due to also being a person who has spent thousands of hours with this game (especially if you include all the time spent hacking the game and collecting media about the online mode) I can't help but exclaim a tiny, involuntary...

"oof"

at this headcanon

 

[Makoeyes987]

Apparently hiding an army of deranged superpowered soldiers created by Shinra underneath Midgar stretches the limits of one's suspension of disbelief. Wow... Who knew!

Every series needs one B-level entry to see just what the limits are of it's creative team. Dirge of Cerberus took the honor with pride. I commend it.

To be honest, I think everyone understands the writers really phoned in this entry and had they treated a game that took place post-FFVII with the reverence and resources it deserved, this game would have been amazing. Instead it was a quick PS2 sequel with stripped online only content that was pulled after a couple years and not even localized. Clearly it shows what happens when a company rests too long on its laurels.

But it has its bright spots to me!

And then the people from that recruitment mission ended up in Deepground.

Well, technically only one did. Azul. The other's met untimely demises.

Deepground received individuals that were either problems that needed to be removed, determined to be too dangerous for SOLDIER or carried unique aptitude and abilities that warranted further study. Keep in mind Azul was a guy who killed a bunch of other SOLDIER candidates in the transportation vehicle he was in just because he was looking for a battle to the death.

He was never gonna fit in with SOLDIER. Deepground was the place for him in his heart.

Then Deepground is insane on a level Dirge of Cerberus never bothers to portray. Meteor is as much their problem as anyone else. They don't want to die having never seen the open air.

Umm...

The pure will be "spared" for the cause, while the tainted will be hunted down and exterminated. They shall be slashed, strangled, and slaughtered. Beaten, stabbed, and crushed. Garroted and impaled. Shot and executed without mercy. The time has come to cleanse this world.

Vincent: Deepground. What are they attempting to do with Omega?
Rosso: I don't know. And to be honest, I don't care.
Vincent: What?
Rosso: But this is what Weiss desires. Hail Weiss. And what Weiss orders, we do. It is very simple. If he desires the awakening of Omega, then that is what all of Deepground desires. We could care less what happens to the planet. But all this matters little to me. It is not every day you are granted the chance to cleanse the world of all life. Just the thought sends a chill of excitement through my body. The Deepground soldiers were born and bred to kill. We were chained to a destiny of servitude. But then three years ago, we were freed from our chains--though waiting for us was darkness lit only by the faint glow of mako. And what do you think we did when we gained our freedom? We killed. That is how we were raised. That is all we knew. And so I bathed in the blood of a thousand soldiers. And I enjoyed it. I reveled in it.

Yuffie: What the heck was that?!
Nero: Oblivion perhaps. My darkness-- it can absorb as well as extract almost anything. However, some things remain--things as black as the heart of a daemon. The essence of death. Its ululations are like a lullaby.

Azul: Would it be alright for me to eat them?
Shelke: There should be no problem with that.
Azul: Fellow Tsviets, don't you feel we should kill each other, to our heart's content?

I mean. Yes. They are all insane. However I do believe the game portrays it quite clearly.

These. Are not individuals you would trust to fight to save the world. In fact, it appears that their leaders would find the prospect of the world ending quite fun! So no. I would not trust the likes of Rosso or Nero to carry the responsibility of fighting for the life of the planet.

How is Deepground hell, the soldiers therein devils but Sephiroth and Meteor, already mostly completed in his plan to kill everyone "a fire". I feel like your comparison is rather unfair.

Ummm, because they're nihilistic, battle-obsessed, violent sociopaths who embrace a tenant of "strength above all" and are willing to kill their own comrades in attempts to climb of arbitrary leaderboards and have no fear of death? I mean, if you have a bunch of killers "born and bred to kill" who march with death always behind them... I don't expect them to value life at all.

Yeah, Sephiroth summoned Meteor and intended to end life on the planet as they knew it, but he did it because he intended to become a god and remake the world in his image so he could rule it. He had a purpose and intended to rebuild the world with him as its overarching leader.

DG Soldiers do indiscriminate mass slaughter for fun.

Hacking into stuff is what Shelke does. Weiss and Shelke are the only ones with the capacity to regulate what either of them are doing. Shinra trained them to do this, even though Shinra themselves are the only ones with a computer system on the Planet. That's a choice Shinra decided to make willingly. Got nothing to do with the Restrictors.

Well, you would think Restrictors would be cognizant of this fact and invest in better cyber-security for their network, especially the part that coordinates the brain surgery that's the core of them wielding control of everyone

There are only SOLDIERS down there and all they do every day is fight, this we have been told.

Well I mean, technically... There are others down there that are scientists and medical personnel. And when you ask questions like that, I mean... It kinda makes sense they'd have to have *some* sort of food prep staff or something... Maybe some of the soldiers have dual roles?

Deepground wants to survive. In FFVII they were in situation where killing Sephiroth was the only way to attain survival, Shinra actively safeguarded Sephiroth from most of Shinra own's fighting force.

Actually, not really! Nope! They seemed quite chill with the prospect of dying when they went on a mad campaign to revive Omega and bring about the end of the world.

They were dispatched to capture Genesis, not knowing what condition he'd be in. Otherwise they could have sent ANYONE. The only reason to send Nero and Weiss to do anything is because they are powerful. Fighting is the only use they have. They were expected to fight. Shinra was fine with this.

Well, that's true, and is a fair point. But if they were gonna fight they clearly weren't gonna be allowed to run wild. They're seen as an absolute last resort for a reason due to being the "Darkness of Shinra" and their worst secret that had to be hidden at all costs.

But Deepground itself exists because Shinra wants to put them to use. And the fact that the multiplayer storyline starts of just before FFVII tell us that they were still receiving new manpower, instead of sending those people to regular SOLDIER as of just before FFVII. They were still a project Shinra was choosing to invest ever more resources in.

Well Shinra needs some place to send their violently mad and worthwhile battle research specimens... Hojo's only one guy after all. He can't experiment on and disappear everybody he comes across

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Shademp
I feel you. Definitely my favorite Compilation entry even if it isn't nearly the best by any objective measure.

But I was also enthralled by the same loli as Vincent.

 

[Roger]

The Omega plan was Hojo's plan. Everyone else was just loyal to (actually dead for near all of DoC) Weiss. Rosso is that crazy. That's why the text singles her out as the one person that is never allowed out of Deepground. The others, the thousands upon thousands of others, not so much. She's the exception to the rule, her and Hojo are not the baseline by which Deepground ought to be judged. If Nero is told that Meteor will kill everyone which as it happens, includes his beloved brother Weiss, he'll act to prevent this, same with the rest. They only got involved in this whole Hojo download thing because they tried to save Weiss' life.

Yeah, Sephiroth summoned Meteor and intended to end life on the planet as they knew it, but he did it because he intended to become a god and remake the world in his image so he could rule it. He had a purpose and intended to rebuild the world with him as its overarching leader.

I don't think Scarlet and Heidegger find this as favourable to Deepground being unleashed as you think.

Well, you would think Restrictors would be cognizant of this fact and invest in better cyber-security for their network, especially the part that coordinates the brain surgery that's the core of them wielding control of everyone

From where? There is no third person that operates on the spectrum that Shelke and Weiss have access to. This is new technology. It's like holding a guy responsible for not properly editing a book, having hired him knowing he's illiterate.

Well I mean, technically... There are others down there that are scientists and medical personnel. And when you ask questions like that, I mean... It kinda makes sense they'd have to have *some* sort of food prep staff or something... Maybe some of the soldiers have dual roles?

Food prep, sure. They might have several cooks But they cannot eat their VR monster opponents. The food still need to come from somewhere. Their underground city clearly does not features massive farmlands.

Well Shinra needs some place to send their violently mad and worthwhile battle research specimens... Hojo's only one guy after all. He can't experiment on and disappear everybody he comes across :awe:

The player Deepground SOLDIER was not violently mad. Shelke needed to engineer memories of a loved one to stop him/her from falling in line as a good soldier.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Omega plan was Hojo's plan. Everyone else was just loyal to (actually dead for near all of DoC) Weiss. Rosso is that crazy. That's why the text singles her out as the one person that is never allowed out of Deepground. The others, the thousands upon thousands of others, not so much. She's the exception to the rule, her and Hojo are not the baseline by which Deepground ought to be judged. If Nero is told that Meteor will kill everyone which as it happens, includes his beloved brother Weiss, he'll act to prevent this, same with the rest. They only got involved in this whole Hojo download thing because they tried to save Weiss' life.

If their loyalty extends to willingly bringing forth the end of the world, to the point that their own lives would be extinguished, that's... Not too far on the spectrum from where Rosso sits. That doesn't really speak positively to their thinking.

And if Weiss said,"I think dying together with the planet would be fine," Nero would go, "You're right, brother. I agree." Nero moves only how Weiss tells him to. Again, Nero was willing to burn down the entire world because a nutty professor told him that ending the world would bring his brother back. That...doesn't make sense any way you slice it.

And Azul is insane. He massacred a group of people in a transport ship with him because he wanted to fight that badly.

Considering that Deepground Soldiers regularly fought to the death with each other on arbitrary practice missions, and Restrictor tells new recruits, "At least make a good research specimen before you die," I think I can safely say that they are all that crazy. They hold no value of human life.

I don't think Scarlet and Heidegger find this as favourable to Deepground being unleashed as you think.

Oh I know they don't, I only used that to illustrate the difference between the two.

Deepground's leaders, the Tsviets, are nihilistic. And while both Sephiroth and the Tsviets are violent and dangerous, one is dangerous because his goal requires him to 'return all life to the planet' while the other is violent because they were literally born and bred to kill and find sport in it. Trying to reason with the latter to fight and defeat the former, would not go well.

From where? There is no third person that operates on the spectrum that Shelke and Weiss have access to. This is new technology. It's like holding a guy responsible for not properly editing a book, having hired him knowing he's illiterate.

Well.. Hojo seemed aware of this technology and even utilized it to copy fragments of his consciousness into it. So did Lucrecia. That's two people right there with knowledge and skill with it. I mean, someone had to develop this technology in order for it to be implemented, right? Clearly, that would mean it could be learned by others, at least to a level that would afford it some protection so it wouldn't be turned against those who are supposed to be in charge.

Food prep, sure. They might have several cooks But they cannot eat their VR monster opponents. The food still need to come from somewhere. Their underground city clearly does not features massive farmlands.

I don't think the monsters were VR, actually. I'm pretty certain they were literal, real monsters. Because those same monsters still were in Deepground when Vincent made his way down there. Gargoyles, Bizarre Bugs, etc. They had a pretty wide and expansive training area with simulated terrain and everything.

The player Deepground SOLDIER was not violently mad. Shelke needed to engineer memories of a loved one to stop him/her from falling in line as a good soldier.

You're right they definitely weren't mad or insane. They were arguably heroic and courageous.

...And you saw what happened to the likes of them

I don't think "nice" soldiers survive long in DG.

 

[Roger]

If their loyalty extends to willingly bringing forth the end of the world, to the point that their own lives would be extinguished, that's... Not too far on the spectrum from where Rosso sits. That doesn't really speak positively to their thinking.

And if Weiss said,"I think dying together with the planet would be fine," Nero would go, "You're right, brother. I agree." Nero moves only how Weiss tells him to. Again, Nero was willing to burn down the entire world because a nutty professor told him that ending the world would bring his brother back. That...doesn't make sense any way you slice it.

And Azul is insane. He massacred a group of people in a transport ship with him because he wanted to fight that badly.

Considering that Deepground Soldiers regularly fought to the death with each other on arbitrary practice missions, and Restrictor tells new recruits, "At least make a good research specimen before you die," I think I can safely say that they are all that crazy. They hold no value of human life.

They still got involved with Hojo because of an attempt to save Weiss. They are crazy, that does not mean they have no values. And fighting is what they are being offered to do. They were willing to capture Genesis and went about their assignment faithfully and without acting out at all. And that Weiss and Nero, there ever so unstable and 100% ravingly insane leaders, the others aren't just gonna refuse to get off the helicopter and fight a Weapon.

Oh I know they don't, I only used that to illustrate the difference between the two.

Deepground's leaders, the Tsviets, are nihilistic. And while both Sephiroth and the Tsviets are violent and dangerous, one is dangerous because his goal requires him to 'return all life to the planet' while the other is violent because they were literally born and bred to kill and find sport in it. Trying to reason with the latter to fight and defeat the former, would not go well.

Again, the leaders don't need to be involved in this one. Utilizing the army of Deepground SOLDIERs is still better then just watching the world burn. And they born and bred and trained in this manner by Shinra. Because the Shinra Execs felt it was a good idea and continued to do so until at least days before the return of Sephiroth.

Well.. Hojo seemed aware of this technology and even utilized it to copy fragments of his consciousness into it. So did Lucrecia. That's two people right there with knowledge and skill with it. I mean, someone had to develop this technology in order for it to be implemented, right? Clearly, that would mean it could be learned by others, at least to a level that would afford it some protection so it wouldn't be turned against those who are supposed to be in charge.

Hojo and Lucretia could not do what Weiss and Shelke do.

I don't think the monsters were VR, actually. I'm pretty certain they were literal, real monsters. Because those same monsters still were in Deepground when Vincent made his way down there. Gargoyles, Bizarre Bugs, etc. They had a pretty wide and expansive training area with simulated terrain and everything.

Yeah simulated. The monsters can't graze there, their food also comes from outside Deepground.

You're right they definitely weren't mad or insane. They were arguably heroic and courageous.

...And you saw what happened to the likes of them

I don't think "nice" soldiers survive long in DG.

There are only a handful of Restrictors that needed to be dispatched. Doesn't present a case study for how the thousands of SOLDIERS that get sent down to Deepground generally fair, there's no reason to believe those like the player character are the ones that don't survive given how powerful they are. And even they do, it still proves that normal capable people DO get sent down there, instead of being added to vanilla SOLDIERs number because that where Shinra wanted to amass all their capable fighters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They still got involved with Hojo because of an attempt to save Weiss. They are crazy, that does not mean they have no values. And fighting is what they are being offered to do. They were willing to capture Genesis and went about their assignment faithfully and without acting out at all. And that Weiss and Nero, there ever so unstable and 100% ravingly insane leaders, the others aren't just gonna refuse to get off the helicopter and fight a Weapon.

Yes, they got involved in an absurd and nihilistic scheme with Hojo, to save Weiss at the expense of all life on the planet. Again, how does this reflect positively on their values or sanity? At best, it reveals DG to be blindly loyal to a fault. At worst, it reveals flagrant disregard for human life that borders on antipathy.

And who's to say Deepground would want to fight for Shinra? Deepground Soldiers don't like Shinra. They resent Shinra keeping imprisoning them beneath Midgar. Weiss would have to be convinced to fight for Shinra, and what leverage would Shinra hold over Weiss to make him comply?

The Restrictors are dead. The brain chips are useless. Why would the end of the world frighten DG soldiers into complying when they're shown to be willing to bring about the end of the world on blind faith and orders from Weiss?? The minute Shinra opened the door to release him or the Tsviets, they've gotten what they wanted. So what would be the reason for the Tsviets to listen or consider anything Shinra has to say?


Weiss and Nero captured Genesis because they were under proper control and restriction. But left on their own without restriction? I'm pretty sure we see just how that would work out once they free themselves in Dirge of Cerberus.

Again, the leaders don't need to be involved in this one. Utilizing the army of Deepground SOLDIERs is still better then just watching the world burn. And they born and bred and trained in this manner by Shinra. Because the Shinra Execs felt it was a good idea and continued to do so until at least days before the return of Sephiroth.

But that's the thing. They would be involved, whether Shinra wanted them to be or not.

DG Soldiers have pledged loyalty and devotion to Weiss by the time FFVII rolls around. Which means convincing Weiss, the arrogant, super-powered asshole who hates Shinra because they kept him chained up inside a Mako Reactor for years, to fight for Shinra and save the planet.

Assuming he does play ball and goes, "Sure, why not? I guess the planet's worth saving after all!" And assuming he somehow succeeds, what happens afterwards?

Do you really think Weiss and the rest of Deepground just go and live peaceful quiet lives with the rest of humanity? I'm pretty positive he'd be carrying a grudge the size of Mako Reactor 0, and would enjoy the chance to get revenge.

The whole idea parallels the thinking of Sam and Dean in Supernatural. Yes, desperate times call for desperate measures but there's a limit to that expression.

No, letting Abaddon free to ask them for help after you sealed them up for good is never a good idea. No, letting Lucifer out of Hell is never a good idea. Because even if it does work, congratulations!

You now have swapped one planet threatening calamity for another!

Hojo and Lucretia could not do what Weiss and Shelke do.

Actually, they can. They literally did just that.

They projected their consciousness into the World Wide Network and uploaded their memories and consciousness onto it. That's how Hojo ended up possessing Weiss, and how Lucretia was able to put her data on Chaos and the Protomateria. If that's not what Weiss and Shelke do regularly then how did DC's plot happen?

Yeah simulated. The monsters can't graze there, their food also comes from outside Deepground.

Well honestly, we'll never know for sure since the details of Deepground's facilities are woefully vague.

There are only a handful of Restrictors that needed to be dispatched. Doesn't present a case study for how the thousands of SOLDIERS that get sent down to Deepground generally fair, there's no reason to believe those like the player character are the ones that don't survive given how powerful they are. And even they do, it still proves that normal capable people DO get sent down there, instead of being added to vanilla SOLDIERs number because that where Shinra wanted to amass all their capable fighters.

Whatever number of "normal" people get sent to Deepground is irrelevant because they are not a significant majority, or even minority. The Tsviets call the shots and they certainly hold no values in line with anything close to humanity at large. Why is it that out of the thousands of DG Soldiers that existed in DC, only 1 defected and joined the WRO? Out of thousands of soldiers, only one was able to find their humanity enough to question the cause they were fighting for and come to the conclusion it was wrong.

The game literally says Deepground is where "all morals are cast aside." And the majority of people sent to Deepground adhere to the guideline "strength above all" and willingly kill their comrades or else get killed in return.

So whatever number of normal people who get sent to Deepground instead of SOLDIER end up falling in line with Deepground's rules and ideals, or die. The sole exception we see, the playable character Tsviet, ended up used as a puppet in the struggle to overthrow Restrictor, and died. How again does thist prove not all DG soldiers are deranged killers, again?

 

[Roger]

Yes, they got involved in an absurd and nihilistic scheme with Hojo, to save Weiss at the expense of all life on the planet. Again, how does this reflect positively on their values or sanity? At best, it reveals DG to be blindly loyal to a fault. At worst, it reveals flagrant disregard for human life that borders on antipathy.

They downloaded a computer program, to save Weiss. Everything after that happened because they thought it was Weiss' desire.

Also Shinra exec don't know what the survivors of Deepgeound will do three yeats after their deaths and can't make a decision informed by it.

And who's to say Deepground would want to fight for Shinra? Deepground Soldiers don't like Shinra. They resent Shinra keeping imprisoning them beneath Midgar. Weiss would have to be convinced to fight for Shinra, and what leverage would Shinra hold over Weiss to make him comply?

The Restrictors are dead. The brain chips are useless. Why would the end of the world frighten DG soldiers into complying when they're shown to be willing to bring about the end of the world on blind faith and orders from Weiss?? The minute Shinra opened the door to release him or the Tsviets, they've gotten what they wanted. So what would be the reason for the Tsviets to listen or consider anything Shinra has to say?


Weiss and Nero captured Genesis because they were under proper control and restriction. But left on their own without restriction? I'm pretty sure we see just how that would work out once they free themselves in Dirge of Cerberus.

Genesis' capture is not the one and only time Deepground actually did a mission for Shinra. Rosso was trapped in Deepground all along, Weiss and Nero were prisoners between missions. The others were not treated that way because they don't all act that way. They got trapped for three years with the Restrictors dead and no contact from the outside and at the end of that hell, the Tsviets had complete control. This does not inform the situation from the very second the first Restrictors body hit the floor.

But that's the thing. They would be involved, whether Shinra wanted them to be or not.

DG Soldiers have pledged loyalty and devotion to Weiss by the time FFVII rolls around.

If that were true there would be no need for all the deception of the multiplayer storyline. There'd be no need for Weiss to die. He did because the conspiracy to overthrow the Restrictors was still limited to the Tsviets at the time. That everyone in DG already valued stopped valueing their own life, a chance to fight or freedom from the second they arrived in Deepground is not proven.

Actually, they can. They literally did just that.

They can digitise their concious. That's it. They cannot do anything with it without Shelke or Weiss help. Otherwise Hojo wouldn't need Nero to begin with. Shelke and Weiss can freely surf the internet as a conscious entity. What security protocols exists in computer have little effect because nothing like them has ever been needed to defend against.

Whatever number of "normal" people get sent to Deepground is irrelevant because they are not a significant majority, or even minority. The Tsviets call the shots and they certainly hold no values in line with anything close to humanity at large. Why is it that out of the thousands of DG Soldiers that existed in DC, only 1 defected and joined the WRO? Out of thousands of soldiers, only one was able to find their humanity enough to question the cause they were fighting for and come to the conclusion it was wrong.

The game literally says Deepground is where "all morals are cast aside." And the majority of people sent to Deepground adhere to the guideline "strength above all" and willingly kill their comrades or else get killed in return.

So whatever number of normal people who get sent to Deepground instead of SOLDIER end up falling in line with Deepground's rules and ideals, or die. The sole exception we see, the playable character Tsviet, ended up used as a puppet in the struggle to overthrow Restrictor, and died. How again does thist prove not all DG soldiers are deranged killers, again?

Most of Deepground died in the three years between FFVII and DOC. Rosso makes that clear. They spent every single day killing each other and the fanatics survived. No new recruits and no supervision from Shinra came after FFVII. That does not tell us why they were still sending good men down to be trained there during FFVII if the project had been written off entirely.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And who's to say Deepground would want to fight for Shinra? Deepground Soldiers don't like Shinra. They resent Shinra keeping imprisoning them beneath Midgar. Weiss would have to be convinced to fight for Shinra, and what leverage would Shinra hold over Weiss to make him comply?

Whatever they used to get him to do the occasional mission for them like go after Genesis. =P

You make it sound like they had never before gotten him to do anything when they clearly had. For that matter, Weiss and Nero weren't the only ones ever sent out -- in the multiplayer mode, Rosso makes the point that others get to go outside sometimes, but not her.

We also know that Shelke was taken from the custody of the Turks and regular Shin-Ra troops on the surface by Deepground SOLDIERs.

The Restrictors are dead. The brain chips are useless. Why would the end of the world frighten DG soldiers into complying when they're shown to be willing to bring about the end of the world on blind faith and orders from Weiss?? The minute Shinra opened the door to release him or the Tsviets, they've gotten what they wanted. So what would be the reason for the Tsviets to listen or consider anything Shinra has to say?

We don't know at precisely what point the Restrictors were all dead, but even if they were already gone at the critical point (i.e. when Sephiroth's barrier around the crater was broken), if it were within the allotted three days before Weiss died, that alone may have been sufficient motivation for everyone.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They downloaded a computer program, to save Weiss. Everything after that happened because they thought it was Weiss' desire.

I'm aware of that, but thats not my point. The fact Deepground went along with Hojo's plan at all shows that the organization isn't a rational player. If Weiss is able to command Deepground to essentially kill themselves and the planet on his orders, why do you somehow believe they can be negotiated and convinced to save the planet at the behest of an organization they would feel no desire to obey?

Threat of death and the impending end of the world does not frighten them. So assuming they'd be rational players willing to put aside their differences for their own sake flies in the face of DC which shows them doing the opposite.

Also Shinra exec don't know what the survivors of Deepgeound will do three yeats after their deaths and can't make a decision informed by it.

I know Shinra wouldn't know that, that's not my point in bringing it up. I'm bringing that up to show Deepground are not rational or pragmatic people that could be negotiated with. They don't fear death and only obey Weiss.

Genesis' capture is not the one and only time Deepground actually did a mission for Shinra. Rosso was trapped in Deepground all along, Weiss and Nero were prisoners between missions. The others were not treated that way because they don't all act that way. They got trapped for three years with the Restrictors dead and no contact from the outside and at the end of that hell, the Tsviets had complete control. This does not inform the situation from the very second the first Restrictors body hit the floor.

Past September of year 0007 and all the way to January of year 0008, Deepground soldiers are absent from the surface and obviously never utilized or shown during FFVII's core plot.

Likewise, Weiss and the rest of Deepground fail to escape or make a successful attempt at breaching security and opening the doors to the surface. For whatever undisclosed, and indeterminate reason, they did not free themselves manually and were trapped under ground entirely by the time Midgar was evacuated due to Meteor.

Either Shinra completely forgot about them, or some security protocol alerted Shinra that something was wrong and the inmates were running the asylum.

Just because people were being thrown into Deepground during the multiplayer plot, doesn't mean that stayed the case upon its end.

If that were true there would be no need for all the deception of the multiplayer storyline. There'd be no need for Weiss to die. He did because the conspiracy to overthrow the Restrictors was still limited to the Tsviets at the time. That everyone in DG already valued stopped valueing their own life, a chance to fight or freedom from the second they arrived in Deepground is not proven.

The deception is necessary because at the time of Multiplayer mode's story, the Restrictors are still alive. By the time FFVII's disc 3 plot happens, the Restrictors are dead and the Tsviets are in charge.

So if Shinra were to open the doors and try to deploy Deepground soldiers, they'd find Weiss in charge rather than Restrictor.

And it's evident the direction Deepground goes in once Weiss and the Tsviets are calling the shots.

They can digitise their concious. That's it. They cannot do anything with it without Shelke or Weiss help. Otherwise Hojo wouldn't need Nero to begin with. Shelke and Weiss can freely surf the internet as a conscious entity. What security protocols exists in computer have little effect because nothing like them has ever been needed to defend against.

But again, if Hojo and Lucrecia show the ability to digitize one's consciousness in the network and Shelke and Weiss are known as masters of that technology who go above and beyond its capabilities (that's the reason Shelke is made a Tsviet after all), it doesn't take genius level protocols or incredible intellect to simply limit their access to the absolute minimum. Instead Shelke has free reign to access the terminal, allowing her to essentially roam the network.

Again, you claimed Shinra was somehow illiterate and ignorant of their own technology but Restrictor is standing right there watching her use it, and authorizing her access to it. Hojo and Lucrecia demonstrate that clearly *some* individuals in the company were at least aware of its potential. So no, it's obviously a massive oversight on their part. Shinra created it, so if they can't even fathom the limits of its abilities in the wrong hands, may be giving it to what are essentially their prisoner soldier force was a bad idea

Most of Deepground died in the three years between FFVII and DOC. Rosso makes that clear. They spent every single day killing each other and the fanatics survived. No new recruits and no supervision from Shinra came after FFVII. That does not tell us why they were still sending good men down to be trained there during FFVII if the project had been written off entirely.

How do you know individuals were sent to Deepground during the period of FFVII that mattered in relation to Sephiroth's time camped in the Northern Crater? When Meteor is summoned and the Northern Crater is revealed as Sehiroth's base, Weiss is pretty much in control of Deepground at that point.

Whatever they used to get him to do the occasional mission for them like go after Genesis. =P

Well that would be Restrictor and the chips in their heads. So that wouldn't even be an option by the chronology of events in FFVII. In CC, Restrictors are still running the place.

You make it sound like they had never before gotten him to do anything when they clearly had. For that matter, Weiss and Nero weren't the only ones ever sent out -- in the multiplayer mode, Rosso makes the point that others get to go outside sometimes, but not her.

Well of course they made him comply. Thats what Restrictor was for!

But they're all or mostly dead by the time Sephiroth summons Meteor and Midgar has to be evacuated.

We also know that Shelke was taken from the custody of the Turks and regular Shin-Ra troops on the surface by Deepground SOLDIERs.

I'm not saying they never were allowed to the surface. Just that they weren't allowed on the surface without supervision because they're obviously dangerous. And they certainly weren't shown to be free roaming during FFVII. I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason behind the Multiplayer mode story in the first place. To show that the reason why the Tsviets weren't present during VII's plot was because they were busy overthrowing Restrictor and through means outsode their control, we're kept trapped and unable to leave.

We don't know at precisely what point the Restrictors were all dead, but even if they were already gone at the critical point (i.e. when Sephiroth's barrier around the crater was broken), if it were within the allotted three days before Weiss died, that alone may have been sufficient motivation for everyone.

Well we know the Restrictors were finally toppled around the time Meteor was bearing down on Midgar, because a little before that time frame, the timeline for FFVII states Weiss secured allegiance from all of Deepground Soldier and then after that Meteor traps them under ground.

So around the time this hypothetical would take place, Weiss is running the Deepground or very close to running the place. Which means he would be the one most influential.

As for convincing him through leveraging the cure to his time-limit virus... Maybe. I could see that working 50-50, because on one hand he obviously wanted to live and cure it. But on the other hand, the multiplayer mode story shows he gave absolutely no fucks killing Restrictor when threatened with the virus. So would that be enough to buy his loyalty? Maybe.

But that still doesn't answer what happens when the dust settles. Once again, its Supernatural logic. Swap one world-ending catastrophe for another.

 

[Roger]

Well we know the Restrictors were finally toppled around the time Meteor was bearing down on Midgar, because a little before that time frame, the timeline for FFVII states Weiss secured allegiance from all of Deepground Soldier and then after that Meteor traps them under ground.

If the timeline states this then fine, they must have already been on their last Restrictor by the time the Weapons were unleashed at the latest. I can understand that they stopped being an option then. Scarlet still should have told Rufus she has like a 100+ gunships ready to go before he went around stealing for aircraft from random retirees in the countryside.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987
I don't understand your insistence on the timing of the Deepground rebellion's overthrow of the Restrictors. We plain don't know precisely when all that shenanigans went down.

We know the date of Meteorfall was 1/21, so the fall of Shin-Ra was around 1/14 -- and that is it. We don't know if the last Restrictor died on 1/20, 1/13, 12/31 or 12/9.

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Makoeyes987
I don't understand your insistence on the timing of the Deepground rebellion's overthrow of the Restrictors. We plain don't know precisely when all that shenanigans went down.

We know the date of Meteorfall was 1/21, so the fall of Shin-Ra was around 1/14 -- and that is it. We don't know if the last Restrictor died on 1/20, 1/13, 12/31 or 12/9.

We don't know precisely when, but we have a general, ball park idea. And it had to have been around the time frame when FFVII's plot took place.

I'm basing it off of these facts.

Genesis was carried away by Nero and Weiss after his defeat by Zack during the early autumn of εуλ 0007, around September or early October. It was at this point that Nero and Weiss propositioned their 'older brother' to aid them in getting revenge on Shinra by helping them overthrow the Restrictors and fight with them. This attempted recruitment and subsequent redemption of Genesis was the important take away regarding that scene with Nero and Weiss. Genesis declines their proposal, and proceeds to seal himself away for the sake of the planet in the underground cave we see him emerge in at the end of DC. Nero and Weiss asking him for help took place 2 to 3 months before the start of FFVII's plot.

So during the autumn of εуλ 0007, Weiss was beginning to formulate his plot to overthrow the Restrictors. He hadn't necessarily begun it, since he's clearly following orders, asking Genesis for help and being allowed top-side under supervision of Shinra. It isn't until after this event, that Weiss is able to implement his plan and begin using newly recruited members to help him beat the Restrictors and usurp control.

We know he succeeded in taking control of Deepground in December of εуλ 0007 and after that happens, Meteor's proximity to Midgar ends up causing Deepground to be trapped beneath Midgar. So the multiplayer mode story has to take place between approx. September and December of εуλ 0007, with Midgar's evacuation and Meteor's assault on Midgar, the absolute latest for it to have resolved.

And that's pretty much the time frame of FFVII's entire plot.

So yeah, that's how I'm getting my approximate dates for when the multiplayer mode story took place. Crisis Core essentially gave us a round about answer to its beginnings and the subsequent timeline materials answer when it concluded.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987
We don't know that Weiss took control of Deepground in December, though. It could have been January. It could even have been November. =P

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Makoeyes987
We don't know that Weiss took control of Deepground in December, though. It could have been January. It could even have been November. =P

But.. That's what the timeline says....

Deep below Midgar, Weiss the Immaculate and Deepground’s other elite warriors successfully orchestrate a rebellion against the Restrictors, the four wardens of Deepground. All DG SOLDIERs swear their loyalty to Weiss, but are soon trapped along with him beneath the ruins of Midgar.

I mean, that entry is listed right underneath the event of...

AVALANCHE works together to evacuate civilians from damaged parts of the city. Meanwhile, Vincent catches what appears to be a momentary flicker of life in Hojo before losing sight of him.

And it's before year 0008.. So when else could it have ended? It has to be during sometime in December, near the time where Midgar was evacuated and storms were tearing apart the city.

FFVII begins after 12/9 so Weiss' success had to have happened sometime during that month. Near its end. The final battle against Sephiroth was in January, and that took place afterwards.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's where we stuck it on our composite timeline for the site, because it had to go somewhere in that timeframe. Perhaps a notation is needed to specify "The timing of these events has been ascribed no exact placement, and its positioning here is guesswork"?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well in the book it's notated for year 0007. No specific date is given but it mentions happening around that specific event.

And really, given the time frame of when FFVII happens, it really falls under late December. Early January if one pushes it but I think the final battle against Sephiroth is only listed as having happened during that specific month. January of 0008, I mean.

I remember what you mean now though, because yes, a bunch of those events on the timeline don't have actual "date" dates. Just approximations and they are ordered in the chronological/continuity of their sequence. Only a few specified key events get hard dates.