SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 9 Spoiler Discussion

[Ite]

Is he? I mean, I caught that he was probably gay, but I don't think its obvious he was trans. If he is and I missed it then I stand corrected.

Is Jules a transvestite or transgendered? What pronouns do they use for themselves, or what pronouns are their friends using for them?

Before we continue, let’s acknowledge that we’re scrutinizing a fictional character (who does not have real feelings) for the purposes of advancing our understanding of trans issues, and that scrutinizing a real person in this way is n o t o k a y

What do official sources (not wikis) refer to Jules as? I’ve only ever heard them referenced as a “he” which suggests they are a male-identifying, male-part-having, makeup-wearing man. Much like Beautiful Bro from 1997 Wall Market.

Edit to address the gay remark: Jules’ sexual orientation is never brought up or referenced, and they don’t treat anyone with special preference or visible attraction, contrasted with Andre who definitely likes Cloud. I’m curious as to what seemed coded gay to you?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jules is coded trans in such an obvious way that I think such clarification is sorta redundant. I'm not sure what more you'd need.

They're most certainly GNC, at the very least.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If Jules were a real person, and they didn't call themself a woman and identify as a woman, then they wouldn't be trans. "Coding" is a very crude metric.
But more than anything, they're just Jules.

 

[Ite]

If Jules were a real person, and they didn't call themself a woman and identify as a woman, then they wouldn't be trans. "Coding" is a very crude metric.
But more than anything, they're just Jules.

I know this is the worst time to use a programming pun, but I think Jules is coded (nyuk nyuk nyuk) as “biologically male” whatever the fuck that means (seriously every biological argument for sexual dimorphism including chromosomes has been disproven).



Jules is modeled to have broad shoulders, thick hands, defined muscles, and a crotch bulge. Clearly the programmers intend for us to associate Jules with masculinity. Jules is even wearing male gym gear and flat boots. The hair is stylish but it’s really only the heavy eye makeup that “codes” them as non-normative. Wanting to look pretty does not a trans woman make. BUT! Adhering to male fashion standards does not a cis-man make either. The only real factor is what the person chooses for themselves, and that’s something Jules cannot do, being fictional.

 

[ForceStealer]

I assumed, at least, transvestite due to the Beautiful Bro origins

 

[Odysseus]

I've been told by my LGBT friends that "transvestite" is a frowned-upon term...

In the original game you get the wig there, implying at the very least there was crossdressing involved. With the shuttering of that sidequest in favor of the new Honey Bee sequence, giving Jules makeup may have been the way of retaining the implication? That doesn't strictly make him trans I suppose.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh, my apologies if that's the case.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Men can be men and still wear cosmetics and enjoy grooming their hair. Lots of cishet men enjoy transvestism as a part-time or full-time lifestyle.

 

[Ite]

I wasn’t aware that “transvestite” carried negative associations for some, but I’m glad I know now. This article was interesting, but it’s from Australia where ppl call each other cunt all day and that would pop a queen’s monacle off in my city.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ite, "woman" carries negative connotations for some.

 

[Ite]

Ite, "woman" carries negative connotations for some.

 

[Fiz]

Is Jules a transvestite or transgendered? What pronouns do they use for themselves, or what pronouns are their friends using for them?

Before we continue, let’s acknowledge that we’re scrutinizing a fictional character (who does not have real feelings) for the purposes of advancing our understanding of trans issues, and that scrutinizing a real person in this way is n o t o k a y

What do official sources (not wikis) refer to Jules as? I’ve only ever heard them referenced as a “he” which suggests they are a male-identifying, male-part-having, makeup-wearing man. Much like Beautiful Bro from 1997 Wall Market.

Edit to address the gay remark: Jules’ sexual orientation is never brought up or referenced, and they don’t treat anyone with special preference or visible attraction, contrasted with Andre who definitely likes Cloud. I’m curious as to what seemed coded gay to you?

I was just bringing it up because of Beautiful Bro in OG, and there was an exchange about it when Cloud questioned him. That had gone in Remake.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm just trying to avoid saying slurs, man.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm just trying to avoid saying slurs, man.

Well, let that be a lesson to you. =P

 

[Odysseus]

I'll try harder in the future to be better, you fucking fa-

 

[Ite]

I'm just trying to avoid saying slurs, man.

I don’t know who you were addressing. In my community, it isn’t a slur, but it’s really good to know that some people take offense. Wouldn’t be the first time I phased out a word that was doesn’t have negative connotations to me.

I was just bringing it up because of Beautiful Bro in OG, and there was an exchange about it when Cloud questioned him. That had gone in Remake.

Totally. Jules is for sure “Beautiful Bro: Remake” (is it canon that he is actually Andre’s brother?). The original Bro isn’t called Beautiful Sis, tho, so unless they are FTM the character has never been transgendered, just a man in a dress and wig (and in Remake, there’s not even a dress, and... is that a wig?)

 

[Odysseus]

I don’t know who you were addressing. In my community, it isn’t a slur, but it’s really good to know that some people take offense. Wouldn’t be the first time I phased out a word that was doesn’t have negative connotations to me.

I think I was reacting to Lic's post when I wrote that, since it inderectly implied I was being stupid and reactionary with my thoughts. I dunno. "Transvestite" might be fine, now I'm not sure. One of my other trans friends loves Rocky Horror and doesn't take offense to the word. I don't know anymore.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Odysseus, I can assure you I did not have anything you posted in mind when I wrote that post. I was entirely responding to Ite.

Anyway, you're right - there's no Central Committee on the Offensiveness of Old and New Slurs that rules on exactly which words are offensive, which are inoffensive and have never been offensive, which ones might be offensive, and which ones used to be offensive but now been rehabilitated but only for use by the group against whom they were previously used as an offensive slur.

 

[ForceStealer]

It does seem a little long for a slur, which tend to be one syllable, or two at most. After all, why would someone being disrespectful want to expend effort? But cross-dresser is an easy alternative, and is what I always assumed both Beautiful Bro and Jules were.

I'm always amazed that "twink" isn't a slur. One syllable, that hard 'k' ending... I assumed it was an insult before I even knew what it meant.

 

[Odysseus]

I am slightly more certain that "tranny" is a slur, or at least considered offensive by some. That fits the criteria better.

 

[ForceStealer]

Indeed. Except for maybe when talking about a car's transmission. Not that I would risk would the association, but then I don't have much cause to talk about transmissions.

 

[Ite]

used to be offensive but now been rehabilitated but only for use by the group against whom they were previously used as an offensive slur.

Certainly there is a lot of that in my local LBGT+ community — particularly among very old gay men, the Statlers and Waldorfs, as it were. It might be born from a Tyrion-esque philosophy of de-fanging the slur (“If I refer to myself as an old f*****, what do I care if the ‘phobes do too?”) but I only ever hear that kind of language at LGBT+ friendly events (my gay village is pretty much a permanent Event).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The UK's most celebrated cross-dresser calls himself a tranny.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv
But "cross-dresser" is just "transvestite" translated into English anyway.
It's mostly from Grayson Perry that I understand that being a transvestite is a completely different thing from being transgender. He's quite clear about being a cishet man.

 

[Odysseus]

Words are just words I guess. They're as offensive as you let them be.

 

[AvecAloes]

The UK's most celebrated cross-dresser calls himself a tranny.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv
But "cross-dresser" is just "transvestite" translated into English anyway.
It's mostly from Grayson Perry that I understand that being a transvestite is a completely different thing from being transgender. He's quite clear about being a cishet man.

There’s a difference between someone who self-identifies as something calling themselves a term that is offensive if someone who does not have that identity using it, though. Think the n-word - the reclamation of it by Black people is empowering for them, but for anyone who is not Black to use it is inappropriate. So while the most famous cross dresser in the UK might call himself a tranny, it’s still considered an offensive term and a slur for people outside of that community/identity to use.