SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Maybe I said this before, but I feel even if we get a non optional explicit (for a FF game) under the Highwind scene but the game still ends with Cloud reaching towards Aerith, some will say it was Aerith all along for Cloud.

My only wish for the trilogy is for them to make it clear enough, without dumbing it down, to be done with all the fighting. I want to be able to talk about all parts of the story without having to tiptoe around it.

If there is non-optional and explicit stuff between Tifa and Cloud, and the game ends with him reaching his hand out to Aerith then all it means is that he still values her and wants to see her again... and be with her again. Which can all be true without it being romantic.

The people that pay attention to the story would understand this. The people that would somehow think that means Cloud loved Aerith all along despite all other scenes are not anyone to pay attention to.

 

[lyingbanana]

Oh dont get me wrong I want to see that scene, always makes me choke up. Who wouldnt want to see those who have left us again.

I would like for people to see it as such instead of as a gotcha for "it was Cloud and Aerith all along", as it is used in the deepest circles of the shipping community.

And yes, I know some people will never change their mind. I just want to be able to talk about it without someone derailing a conversation saying some crazy stuff that needs you to play the game squinting for it to work.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I suspect they might add Zack into the hand reach, and alter the line about meeting people in the promised land to be about multiple people- also maybe be clearer about it being a "even if we die here" line rather than a statement of purpose for life going forward.

 

[lyingbanana]

It will probably be different, but I wouldnt like for them to introduce Zack into Aerith moments, just like I would hate if they introduced Aerith or Zack into the LF when its a moment for Cloud and Tifa.

The hand reach is pretty iconic and ties in well with Advent Children, but yeah clarifying that line would be sweet, its always bothered me how they didnt acknowledge all the other people they lost to Sephiroth.

Justice for mama Strife and papa Lockhart

Also @Eerie and @Heartstation
I coincidentally stumbled upon this combo and made me think of the points you brought up

Instead of cyan following their gut now they have been nudged towards one side which will probably color their perception.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah the one cyan is going to be "uh??? But that's what I said???" when they'll play the game, 100%. And then what lol. When they'll see the kiss, it'll be confusing too xD

So that tactic can only last so long.

Beside that, everyone is talking about the ending... but forgot that there is going to be a new ending anyway. Kitase gave his homework to Nomura and was satisfied, so let's see.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It will probably be different, but I wouldnt like for them to introduce Zack into Aerith moments, just like I would hate if they introduced Aerith or Zack into the LF when its a moment for Cloud and Tifa.

They probably won't go so far as to include him in the pull itself, but his voice saying something to break Cloud out of his post fight stupor. I definitely think he's going to be involved in the sequence in some way.

The hand reach is pretty iconic and ties in well with Advent Children, but yeah clarifying that line would be sweet, its always bothered me how they didnt acknowledge all the other people they lost to Sephiroth.

Justice for mama Strife and papa Lockhart

Not just to seph, but yeah, it's odd that Avalanche, their mothers, Cait Sith 1 (I kid), Zack himself, they all just got ignored.

Also @Eerie and @Heartstation
I coincidentally stumbled upon this combo and made me think of the points you brought up
View attachment 17623
Instead of cyan following their gut now they have been nudged towards one side which will probably color their perception.

If they let people come to their own conclusions they might wind up not shipping the 'right' thing

 

[GamerSkull]

If they let people come to their own conclusions they might wind up not shipping the 'right' thing

Yeah, I guess it helps that Clotis don't necessarily have to nudge new players at all.

They just have to pray that new players aren't stupid.

 

[Skilganon]

"Cloud moves on from Tifa" has to be one of the weirdest takes.

At this point in the story, Cloud isn't even aware that he had a crush. It's not until the lifestream sequence that he accepts and admits that he had a crush on Tifa. Moreover, there is no reason for him to move on. Tifa likes him back and she's still alive. If a character's arc was about moving on from a loved one, you would make that clear from the get-go, i.e. Aerith getting over Zack.

 

[Skilganon]

The LTD has become a zero-sum game to me. An ending that leaves open both romances would not be satisfying. The hand reach in the OG gave this exact impression, same thing with the "I think I can meet her there" line. Regardless of the devs motivations behind these lines/translations in 1997, they should be well aware of how these moments are perceived now.

Which is why I'm hoping for clear contextualization of what these characters mean to Cloud.

The reason I say the LTD is a zero-sum game is for Tifa's sake. Ultimatias will say things like "Cloud is Tifa's ideal love", but then you see how Cloud treats her in AC and COT and it's not good. It's either inconsistent or bad writing. If SE is going to put Cloud in a romantic relationship with Tifa, but at the same time leave open the interpretation that he's pining for Aerith, that will put Tifa in a very negative light. SE has to be decisive. If Cloud is living with Tifa after the credits roll, he should be 100% on board. If Cloud is in fact pining for Aerith as a lover, he shouldn't be living with Tifa.

 

[Eerie]

At this point in the story, Cloud isn't even aware that he had a crush

I do think you're wrong. Because I don't think he would kiss anyone but the one he truly loves. The GS dates, even though they don't happen in canon, show the canon of their relationship. And in MSQ, Cloud does say "those you love" looking at Tifa (yes the EN screwed that part). The guy is far from having a crush, he's built his whole core about being special to her. Akira's song spells it out at the end, with him saying he's ready to tell his lover "I love you" (which was one of the biggest hints I took).

The reason I say the LTD is a zero-sum game is for Tifa's sake. Ultimatias will say things like "Cloud is Tifa's ideal love", but then you see how Cloud treats her in AC and COT and it's not good.

I have come to that conclusion too after Remake. Examining the story from a step back and looking at Aerith and Tifa's roles, I realised that Cloud could not be a "both girls" type of characters. Simply because it would be unfair to Tifa: Aerith gets everything (including TWO love interests who love her back), and she gets to share her guy. So that's not what the story is telling. Even in the OG, the LSS is very telling, because all his memories minus the Nibelheim incident are about Tifa. And this is the place where they both realise they love each other.

And indeed in CoT and ACC, this is not what the story is telling either. Now don't get me wrong I think both would need a HUGE rewrite; CoT's problem is that it focused entirely on setting up ACC, so we saw the things that brought trouble. But in fact in CoT, Cloud was HAPPY. And he was so happy that he got scared of losing it all - and when he caught Geostigma, it was the end of his fighting spirit. ACC is much better than AC - which IMHO was made to make every shipper happy, so it just managed to make people unhappy. However they tried to repair this with ACC where Cloud's true nature was able to shine a bit.

As for him being his ideal love, yeah he is. All the guys who hit on Tifa do it for her body, he's the only one who doesn't consider her as a trophy, who gives her space and the choice to say yes or no, he brings her as gift what she truly wants (rare veggies and fruits!) after the flower mess in Remake, he helps her when she's having PTSD by just being there for her... yeah, he's the best man, and what's more, he loves her and only her back. I've said it on the previous page but looking at the interactions through a LT/D lense kind of kills what you can get from this game. Just like thinking every interaction is romantic kills every author's intent: there are places where there is romance, and there are places where there is friendship.

Also people mention Cloud a lot (even though Nojima went through the pain of writing 2K gils to become a hero, where Cloud states that he will do everything to become special to Tifa, yet people act like this never happened), but never Aerith's feelings, and personally? I am really looking forward her reunion with Zack. I think it will solve the LT.

 

[lyingbanana]

Do you guys think the fact that Aerith dies also colors people perception?

Like its perceived as mean and/or unfair if Cloud wasnt in love with her.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Do you guys think the fact that Aerith dies also colors people perception?

Like its perceived as mean and/or unfair if Cloud wasnt in love with her.

I think it's that Aerith had feelings for Cloud and she died.

To which I would like to raise Parasyte. xD

 

[Skilganon]

Do you guys think the fact that Aerith dies also colors people perception?

Like its perceived as mean and/or unfair if Cloud wasnt in love with her.

It's also mean and unfair to imagine Cloud spends the rest of his life pining for Aerith as a lost love. I don't know how the devs can depict Cloud mourning Aerith without shippers thinking it's romantic. Other compilation titles make it seem like Aerith's death affects Cloud in a unique way, such as from DOC manual "Aerith's name will be etched in his heart forever".

It's also weird when you consider Cloud didn't seem that put out by Aerith's death in the OG, but then compilation titles made it seem like it weighed more heavily on him, suggesting that he grew more depressed in the years after her death.

I don't think the CA shippers who believe in Cloud's eternal widower-hood have no backing to their claims. They just have an incomplete picture of these characters. We also have to admit that the compilation materials are themselves very inconsistent.

 

[Eerie]

I think it's that Aerith had feelings for Cloud and she died.

To which I would like to raise Parasyte. xD

I personally think that Rebirth brought on the table "but is that really love?" on Aerith's part and this is where maybeeeeeeeee they will go for ZA's reunion. I've always imagined her explanation to Zack (since he was told she loved Cloud now by Marlene and this needs to get solved): "I fell in love with you again through him" or something similar. It's the Zack part in Cloud that Aerith always wanted, and I feel we're about to find that.

@Skilganon they are fine saying Aerith should move on from Zack, but Cloud must pine forever. Well bad news, he never did anyway. He just had a lots of guilt.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I personally think that Rebirth brought on the table "but is that really love?" on Aerith's part and this is where maybeeeeeeeee they will go for ZA's reunion. I've always imagined her explanation to Zack (since he was told she loved Cloud now by Marlene and this needs to get solved): "I feel in love with you again through him" or something similar. It's the Zack part in Cloud that Aerith always wanted, and I feel we're about to find that.

Well, I was going to add "to whatever capacity" after "feelings", but then I thought that regardless of the reason or nature of those feelings, Aerith did still have them at some point.

And yes, I think that when she reunites with Zack (and the mysteries surrounding Cloud will be explained), she'll understand her "there's liking and liking." I imagine she'd be like, "Ah. That was what it was."

 

[lyingbanana]

It's also mean and unfair to imagine Cloud spends the rest of his life pining for Aerith as a lost love. I don't know how the devs can depict Cloud mourning Aerith without shippers thinking it's romantic. Other compilation titles make it seem like Aerith's death affects Cloud in a unique way, such as from DOC manual "Aerith's name will be etched in his heart forever".

What a sad existance that would be
Loving someone forever is one thing, pining after is not healthy, especially how its interpreted by those who ship them after the events of FF7.

I don't think the CA shippers who believe in Cloud's eternal widower-hood have no backing to their claims. They just have an incomplete picture of these characters. We also have to admit that the compilation materials are themselves very inconsistent

Makes me think of that quote by one of the devs (cant remember who it was) about how he was surprised people pityied Tifa after AC. Which I dont know if its a case of a men writing women or if he never really considered the female persepctive of her situation.

I don't think the CA shippers who believe in Cloud's eternal widower-hood have no backing to their claims. They just have an incomplete picture of these characters. We also have to admit that the compilation materials are themselves very inconsistent.

And I agree with you, I feel in some aspects they have been very wishy washy about the romantic depictions in the compilation.

Edit: Remake series seems aimed at dispeling some misconceptions but I will reserve my full opinion until the last installment.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's also mean and unfair to imagine Cloud spends the rest of his life pining for Aerith as a lost love. I don't know how the devs can depict Cloud mourning Aerith without shippers thinking it's romantic. Other compilation titles make it seem like Aerith's death affects Cloud in a unique way, such as from DOC manual "Aerith's name will be etched in his heart forever".

This really is just a fairly fancy way of saying "will never forget" and it's used to describe his promise with Tifa as well.

It's also weird when you consider Cloud didn't seem that put out by Aerith's death in the OG, but then compilation titles made it seem like it weighed more heavily on him, suggesting that he grew more depressed in the years after her death.

It's the guilt of the death- and Zack's - that weigh on him. As said a couple times, Cloud hasn't lived much of a quiet, happy life and he starts to worry about whether he deserves it, and feels guilty that he feels so happy, he feels he must do something to earn it. First that manifests as taking in Denzel and searching for a cure, and when push comes to shove searching for a hail mary and absolution. But his sins forgiven (by himself after the symbols of his guilt told him to do so) he can be genuinely happy again.

I don't think the CA shippers who believe in Cloud's eternal widower-hood have no backing to their claims. They just have an incomplete picture of these characters. We also have to admit that the compilation materials are themselves very inconsistent.

Deliberately incomplete pictures.

 

[Eerie]

Makes me think of that quote by one of the devs (cant remember who it was) about how he was surprised people pityied Tifa after AC. Which I dont know if its a case of a men writing women or if he never really considered the female persepctive of her situation.

It was Nomura. AC IMHO had several problems, its non-existant dialogues aside (and as such, characterisation):

• It was clearly a time when they wanted to please everyone;
• In their heads, it was clearly Tifa, and it didn't need further showing off because "they have a good relationship";
• A lot of the dialogue wasn't explained either; when Tifa said "is it us or a memory?", everyone thought she was talking about Aerith, but it needed the Reunion files to find out it's about Sephiroth; to this day, many still believe she's talking about Aerith.

So he had in his head a movie with few dialogue and everything fell into place in his head because he knew what the story is about and misdjudged that people need dialogues to understand the characters and their motivations. ACC was clearly meant to correct the bad takes, but it clearly wasn't enough. And the accompanying OtWaS were badly written, made it sound that Cloud and Tifa were only friends and not actually together, which did not help (reminder it was the first set of novellas written by Nojima and ooh yeah it shows, even in its revised version).

And I agree with you, I feel in some aspects they have been very wishy washy about the romantic depictions in the compilation.

I disagree. I think it's pretty forward except for AC, but ACC was created to correct that view too. The fact that people refuse to see it is not really their fault - there is a lot of lying and gaslight coming from that part of the fandom trying to be canon. CT was always canon since the OG, they just didn't bother with it until ACC really. I think it was CC that created a turn in how they treated the pairings, but globally, if you look at the Compilation, the only work where it's not clearly CT is AC. Which is not the canon version anymore.

 

[lyingbanana]

You said it best there was a time when they wanted to please everyone, plus the mistranslations in some works and all the little things accumulate.

Im saying ultimately those fans are wrong, and the blame should rest upon those who refuse to see the story for what it is. But I get them, there is enough to grab from here and there to arrive at the wrong conclusion.

 

[Skilganon]

I'm more in the camp that the LTD is the writers' fault. I don't think the devs have "always been clear" about CT endgame, but this is just my subjectivity. There is no way to say objectively what is a "clear" relationship in any media.

To explain further, I think the devs intended CT to be endgame, they just presented it poorly, and in some cases, this was intentional. Moments like the hand reach at the end of OG and the "I think I can meet her there" line, add just enough ambiguity to put Cloud's feelings into question. We have to wonder why they decided to change it from an earlier version of that scene where Cloud mentioned Mt. Nibel, "We'll see the other side of the mountain", showing that Cloud and Tifa are discussing a shared memory. Then they changed it to a vague line from Cloud that could refer to Aerith. It strikes me as a bizarre decision, because the previous line sounds much more poetic and appropriate to the situation.

If the devs wanted to solidify an endgame ship, they could have done that with AC, but instead they decided to be vague about the CT relationship intentionally. Nomura admits this in that interview when he says he "has no idea" if Cloud and Tifa were in a relationship. This is a complete lie. Nomura directed AC and talked with Nomura about the characters he wrote. Nomura knows if Cloud and Tifa were in a relationship, he could have given a yes or no answer. What's even weirder is he just stated this out of the blue when the interviewer had in fact asked about Sephiroth's love life. He could have just said nothing about Cloud and Tifa and let the audience come to their own conclusions.

There are many instances like this that are worthy of criticism. And it isn't just because I prefer a certain ship, but moreso because it undermines their own storytelling. How are we supposed to care about Cloud finding the courage to protect his family if we do not know who Tifa is to him? If it was made clear early on that they were in a romantic relationship or harbored feelings for each other (which isn't hard to do for most filmmakers), this adds a whole new dimension to Cloud's struggle. Most movies and plays just tell you if certain characters are in romantic partnerships, treating it like this obscure, secretive easter egg is detrimental to the plot.

Add to this the fact that OTWTAS was released in the US three years after AC, to coincide with ACC that changed certain scenes. So yeah... the entire LTD is squarely on the shoulders of Nomura, Nojima, Kitase, etc. etc. They've put themselves in a position where, if they do solidify a canon pairing, it will seem like a retcon to a lot of fans.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I'm more in the camp that the LTD is the writers' fault. I don't think the devs have "always been clear" about CT endgame, but this is just my subjectivity. There is no way to say objectively what is a "clear" relationship in any media.

To explain further, I think the devs intended CT to be endgame, they just presented it poorly, and in some cases, this was intentional. Moments like the hand reach at the end of OG and the "I think I can meet her there" line, add just enough ambiguity to put Cloud's feelings into question. We have to wonder why they decided to change it from an earlier version of that scene where Cloud mentioned Mt. Nibel, "We'll see the other side of the mountain", showing that Cloud and Tifa are discussing a shared memory. Then they changed it to a vague line from Cloud that could refer to Aerith. It strikes me as a bizarre decision, because the previous line sounds much more poetic and appropriate to the situation.

If the devs wanted to solidify an endgame ship, they could have done that with AC, but instead they decided to be vague about the CT relationship intentionally. Nomura admits this in that interview when he says he "has no idea" if Cloud and Tifa were in a relationship. This is a complete lie. Nomura directed AC and talked with Nomura about the characters he wrote.

I just want to make two corrections. That first line is not a case of "could" refer to Aerith. It literally does. The Ultimania literally says it does. I don't understand why anyone keeps debating this especially when the point is to avoid misinformation.
"The person, they're talking about is of course Aerith. As for the Promised Land...." Pg 27 2005 Ultimania Omega

The mystery here is not who the line is about. What people get wrong however is the purpose.

It's more why they're bringing up Aerith. Because it explains the nature of the Promised Land. A question that has been asked the whole game. It's saying that there is hope even in death to reunite with loved ones. Tifa brings it up herself in the Highwind scene about knowing that the people that died could see how hard they're fighting for them. That there is a possibility to seeing them again. This scene is the answer to that. Both Cloud and Tifa expressed the desire to know if it was possible to see Aerith and their loved ones again. Aerith being very obviously on their minds as they watched her die literally days ago at this point.

And I don't blame the devs for just continuing with their story like normal because I don't think they were thinking it was going to be misconstrued the way it was.

It makes sense. It's always made sense. It's not some wrench thrown in to shill the LTD but a natural progression of a story that two people would bring up their loved one who literally died tragically a few days ago when the topic of the afterlife is brought up. In fact I argue that it would be extremely weird if they never mentioned her and yet she's referred to as someone important to them.

Second. Nomura's "no clue" "shiranai" implies an air not that he's lying and doesn't know but that he doesn't care which is what "shiranai" means it's like "don't know don't care". This makes sense if you know that Nomura was more interested in FFVII's story for the sake of its artistic value. He had a similar philosophy when making AC hoping viewers could give their own thoughts. He further goes into this in the commentary on AC where he talks about the symbolism and how he envisioned the movie. And when the couple in question was to him was just a part of that story he probably wasn't too worried about what the fans were saying. He probably figured the work would speak for itself and he was pro letting fans draw their own conclusions anyway. Because again the devs were just writing a story according to their vision at the time. I don't think they thought any of this was harmful because a lot of Japanese media takes this approach of letting the story speak for itself.

I understand the frustration but time has passed and more clarification on these things is available. Ultimanias are available in English. We're in a different time. I argue it should be clear enough at this point because the devs are intentionally making their original intentions clear now, especially Nomura. So we shouldn't be blaming them for things from when they started out and judging them more on how they do things now.

I think NOW the story is clearer than ever and they're doing a good job with not just the romance but character bonds in general. And they have realized now that LTD did a disservice to their story and are working to fix what they can not by changing the story completely but by showing it the way they originally meant to.

 

[Empyrea]

The devs weren't blameless, but at this point (especially), I think it's the fans that are to blame.

I don't know if it's just me, but this story had always been clear about this. Maybe not crystal clear, but definitely not so deep that it needs the thorough analysis people do with it.

The fact that the other side feels the need to come up with cope after cope, eternally move the goalposts, indulge in double standards nearly all the time, prime newcomers into their preferred interpretation, and read the story as if it were Twilight wearing an FF7 skin and still tout it as a romance story worth fighting for the way they do is, to me, all evidence that they're fighting for something that never existed in the first place.

 

[Skilganon]

The mystery here is not who the line is about. What people get wrong however is the purpose.

In the ending cutscene of the OG, two things happen: Cloud sees Aerith's hand reaching toward him through a portal. Cloud smiles and tries to take her hand. The hand is revealed to be Tifa's. This presents ambiguity as to whether Cloud was seeing Tifa or Aerith as he was smiling. Then, as Cloud and Tifa are being hoisted out of the crater arm in arm, he says, "I think I can meet her there". Both of these scenes suggest that Cloud's primary concern as they are about to die is reuniting with Aerith.

If someone was playing FFVII for the first time, I would not blame them for seeing this ending as implying some romantic longing on Cloud's part. I also wouldn't blame them for thinking the devs intended this possible interpretation.

We shouldn't need to read an Ultimania to find out that a line about a singular person was actually about "loved ones in general". If that was the purpose of the line, that should have been true from the start. The rejected line about "the other side of the mountain" actually serves this purpose better, like, infinitely better. It's also a metaphor.

Here's the thing, I do not have issues with Cloud wavering between his romantic longing for Aerith and his love for Tifa. That could make for a very complex and flawed character. The problem is having him live with Tifa, whose feelings are very clear. It makes her look like a doormat, and this all stems from the fact that Nomura didn't care. This is the reason my most people think "the player chooses who Cloud loves", the devs themselves treat the romance as vestigial.

If, as people on the forum have said before, that the devs treat CT as a given, then they should have had no reason to hide it in AC.

We should be wondering why we need Ultimanias to make sense of characters' motives, why Nojima needed to make entire twitter threads saying that NPTK is about "Everyone". It's because of sloppy writing, an inability to write stories that speak for themselves.

 

[Nancy]

In the ending cutscene of the OG, two things happen: Cloud sees Aerith's hand reaching toward him through a portal. Cloud smiles and tries to take her hand. The hand is revealed to be Tifa's. This presents ambiguity as to whether Cloud was seeing Tifa or Aerith as he was smiling. Then, as Cloud and Tifa are being hoisted out of the crater arm in arm, he says, "I think I can meet her there". Both of these scenes suggest that Cloud's primary concern as they are about to die is reuniting with Aerith.

If someone was playing FFVII for the first time, I would not blame them for seeing this ending as implying some romantic longing on Cloud's part. I also wouldn't blame them for thinking the devs intended this possible interpretation.

I play the OG for the first time in 2005 after watching AC because I wanted to get to know the characters better and I didn't think that when I saw Cloud trying to reach out for Aerith’s hand at the end

Instead I came to the conclusion that since they were in the northern crater with everything crumbling around them, they thought they wouldn't make it out and go to the promise land to see Aerith which they know she will be there, especially with Tifa smiling thinking she will get to see her best friend again too

 

[Empyrea]

I played the OG in like.. 2004, as a high schooler. I saw that hand reach scene and thought nothing of it cause I was more focused on whether or not the party was doomed. So those lines coming right after iirc gave me, "I wanna think positively even just a little bit before we possibly die" kind of vibe.

Also, will note, I will never get the "the player chooses who Cloud loves" take. FF7 isn't a visual novel, and it's not a romance story, either. The choices only mattered for one date. That's it. And then Cloud's messed up head becomes more apparent afterwards.

I found that rather creepy, and it wasn't until the LSS, which is...prime cheesy romance material imo, that I entertained the idea that Cloud really is into someone.

Edit to add: I will agree that singling out Aerith in that last line struck me as weird. I just reasoned out that it made more sense to reference a character I (and the players in general) knew.