Hojo and lies

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe, when Seph was down in the basement reading up on the Jenova project, he discovered it had been Gast's baby all along, and that discovery was part of what sent him over the edge.

 

[Tashasaurous]

I'm just thinking of a different scenario of what would've happened if Sephiroth was told that Jenova wasn't even his real mother. He was implanted by her cells, but those said cells were implanted inside Lucrecia. I refuse to have Jenova as Sephiroth's real mother.

uhhh Jenova isn't his real mother so why say you refuse to have her, nobody here thinks she's his mother at all and I've played the game I know how he got Jenova cells in his body and you're coming off as quite patronising for making it sound like I don't know how it happened.

Sorry, it's just that some people believe that Jenova is Sephiroth's real mother, whereas you, me and practically everyone else knows the truth.

Yeah...sorry for the spelling mistake on Ifalna. I remember the name, but just have trouble spelling it out. I have trouble remembering how to spell certain words no matter how hard I try and looking it up in a dictionary or online are practially useless because it gives you the opposite of what you want.

there's always google and what is Aerith's mother called

There's that.

Because Lucrecia wanted to hide the fact that Vincent's father Grimoire sacrificed himself and she had to distant herself away from the man she loved, and blindly went to Hojo until it was too late.

That was to do with her relationship with Vincent that has no bearing on her agreeing to her child being an experiment in the JENOVA project.

Your answer to my quote makes no sense at all to what I've written. I don't even understand how that pertains to her agreeing to give her child to the experiment, she wasn't forced into it, she agreed end of. Did she feel guilt and regret it, yes but it doesn't change that she in part shares the blame for JENOVA being implanted in Sephiroth in the first place.

I just have sympathy for those who yes did bad things, but regret their actions and try to make up for it, because that tells me that their hearts are good, they just followed the wrong path. Lucrecia and the Turks I definately sympathize, especially in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.

Hell, I even feel sorry for Sephiroth. I'll never forgive his terrible deeds, but Crisis Core changed my views towards him. Genesis, the same reason. I don't even mind Rufus, either since he wanted to stop Sephiroth in the Original game and even wanted to help in stopping Kadaj's group.

And I don't mind Gast either. He doesn't irritate me at all.

The ones that definately don't even feel sorry for are Hojo, the President, Scarlet, Heidegger, and the first AVALANCHE's scientest Fuhito, because neither of them regret anything.

Well, Hojo admits that he's wrong and hates himself for it, but he isn't even sorry for all the horrible experiments or his disgusting ideas. No sympathy towards that man what so ever.

 

[Sprites]

Well I suppose there are still first time gamers out there that wouldn't have a clue about it but I think those are few and far between these days.

I get what your saying about feeling sympathy for Lucrecia etc I can understand that but at the same time, I think sometimes the sympathy overshadows everything else.

sorry guys I've veered off the topic completely, I'll post something when we're back on topic

 

[Octo]

Well theres a difference between us/players feeling sorry for Gast and Lucrecia and whether or not Sephiroth would.

IIRC in the game, Sephiroth:

1) Suspects that he was 'created' = 'was I created this way? Professor Gast why didn't you tell me?' - he's feeling distressed and betrayed.

2) Reads the details of the Jenova project - Finds out he has 'Ancient' blood. Gets a huge superiority complex and decides to kill everyone

Lets assume he learned the Real Truth

1) He would still be distressed to learn of his 'creation', he would still feel betrayed by professor Gast.

2) He would probably be disgusted to learn Hojo was his father

3) He would probably be upset that his birth Mother Lucrecia thought so little of him

He'd probably still go crazy, and assuming that Jenova had no influence over him (and I'm not sure that it didn't) he'd probably want revenge on those particular people responsible - Including Shinra who financed it all.

Thats my take on it anyway.

 

[Roger]

Was Vincent actually present at his birth though? He might have known his name but there's nothing to suggest he ever actually saw a baby Sephiroth.

Sephiroth at some point during Vincent's duties as Lucretia's bodyguard emerged from Lucretia's body and then occupied the same mansion as Vincent. Why is the assumption that Vincent manages to miss the baby altogether? Place only has one exit other then the sewers.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The windows.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Was Vincent actually present at his birth though? He might have known his name but there's nothing to suggest he ever actually saw a baby Sephiroth.

Sephiroth at some point during Vincent's duties as Lucretia's bodyguard emerged from Lucretia's body and then occupied the same mansion as Vincent. Why is the assumption that Vincent manages to miss the baby altogether? Place only has one exit other then the sewers.

Well, the fact that he was kinda shot and stuck in a tube in DoC kinda solidifies the fact that yes, he missed baby Sephiroth shooting out of Lucrecia's womb. I know the canon concerning DoC and the OG is all over the place, but DoC left me with the impression that Vincent was there throughout Lucrecia's pregnancy, but missed the birth because he couldn't his mouth shut and confronted Hojo. Hence the scene from Vincent's POV in the tube in Lucrecia's lab where she's yelling at Hojo to give Sephiroth back.

It kind of implies that he was taken away from her right after he was born, and Lucrecia, despite never being noticeably pregnant in the game, was still suffering through her pregnancy as she walked in right after Hojo had shot Vincent.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The canon as it has been described in all the Ultimanias has it that Vincent was shot at least two years after Sephiroth was born, though.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

The canon as it has been described in all the Ultimanias has it that Vincent was shot at least two years after Sephiroth was born, though.

Yes but UGH it makes no sense! >kdzjfvnbsdzlkfjdxknb vc

This timeline is all sorts of messed up.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think I see the issue. Clarify for me?

 

[Tashasaurous]

The canon as it has been described in all the Ultimanias has it that Vincent was shot at least two years after Sephiroth was born, though.

I find Ultimanias to be edgy when it comes to revealing parts of games which say something completely or a little bit different.

Plus, Square owns all FFVII material including the Compilation, so they know the truth better than the rest of us.

Maybe the way it works are set in slightly alternate universes, and this is FFVII's Universe we're talking about. Either way, all games, OTWTAS and the film are canon and the reason why LAST ORDER lost it's canon quality was because Advent Children Complete replaced the memory scene of Zack screaming to Cloud to run to fit more into Zack's final scenes in Crisis Core which also matched that of the Original game.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Two years is a very long time for people to be doing nothing. Where was Sephiroth for these two years? Where was Lucrecia? Speaking as a mother, two years is plenty of time for a determined, resourceful woman with a Turk on her side to find out where they've taken her baby. But apparently they were all three - Hojo, Vincent, and Lucrecia - still in Nibelheim, and Lucrecia still had full access to the labs, which is really surprising in view of the feelings she would have had about Hojo by that point. And what would have made Vincent decide he needed to protest about Sephiroth's birth two years after it happened?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Welp, the original reason given for Vincent confronting Hojo was that Lucrecia had disappeared following her body becoming deformed due to the presence of Jenova within her. Obviously DC changed that, and it's unclear why he's chastising Hojo within the canon-of-the-moment, but his Ultimania info -- even after DC came along -- still puts the timeframe well after Sephiroth's birth.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Two years is a very long time for people to be doing nothing. Where was Sephiroth for these two years? Where was Lucrecia? Speaking as a mother, two years is plenty of time for a determined, resourceful woman with a Turk on her side to find out where they've taken her baby. But apparently they were all three - Hojo, Vincent, and Lucrecia - still in Nibelheim, and Lucrecia still had full access to the labs, which is really surprising in view of the feelings she would have had about Hojo by that point. And what would have made Vincent decide he needed to protest about Sephiroth's birth two years after it happened?

Well, people do other things to fill up the two year gap.

But yeah, the Ultimania saying this sounds wrong. In my opinion, the DOC explaination sounds a bit better since baby Sephiroth was taken away from Lucrecia the moment he was born because Hojo is evil-hearted and believes that babies are just test subjects no different from being created from a tube.

Heck, we don't even see baby Sephiroth in any of the versions of Final Fantasy VII Universe....at least I didn't.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Welp, the original reason given for Vincent confronting Hojo was that Lucrecia had disappeared following her body becoming deformed due to the presence of Jenova within her. Obviously DC changed that, and it's unclear why he's chastising Hojo within the canon-of-the-moment, but his Ultimania info -- even after DC came along -- still puts the timeframe well after Sephiroth's birth.

I accept it's canon, but it wouldn't be the first time FFVII canon has made no sense.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm still not sure I see why it doesn't make sense. Can you help me out?

 

[Roger]

The windows.

Chucking that baby through the window gets him outside, he still need to pass through the same gate as he does if he went through the front door.

Anyway, yes the Compilation timeline that draws their stay at Nibelheim out for years does not make much sense, but why exactly do you think the shooting was ever meant to occur before Lucretia gave birth, Tasha?

 

[Tashasaurous]

The windows.

Chucking that baby through the window gets him outside, he still need to pass through the same gate as he does if he went through the front door.

Anyway, yes the Compilation timeline that draws their stay at Nibelheim out for years does not make much sense, but why exactly do you think the shooting was ever meant to occur before Lucretia gave birth, Tasha?

Lol, that would've been funny if baby Sephiroth was tossed through the window like that, unless you meant checking.

Because the Ultimina sounds even more confusing and less convincing, and well, clearly Vincent couldn't have been stuck in the tube for two years or even been around after Sephiroth was born. He would've seen two year old Sephiroth as the rest of us would, right?

And please, call me Tash. That's my nick-name underneath my Tashasarous name.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... clearly Vincent couldn't have been ... around after Sephiroth was born.

Why? That creates no continuity issues.

He would've seen two year old Sephiroth as the rest of us would, right?

There's nothing to indicate Sephiroth was kept in Nibelheim for long after he was born. It's rather quite the opposite since Lucrecia was still there, had the run of the lab area, and yet was still shown demanding that Hojo let her see Seph (meaning she didn't have access to him).

 

[Roger]

The flashbacks go, Vincent, Lucretia, Hojo argue, Vincent narrates that a child was born to Lucretia, then we get a flashback of Vincent getting shot.

Sephiroth remembering Nibelheim but Lucretia coming back to Nibelheim to put Chaos and the Protomateria in Vincent is dumb, sure but there's nothing stopping Vincent from meeting Sephiroth before that.

Even if Vincent wasn't allowed to be in the room and even if Sephiroth was taken to Midgar the day he was born, they'd have passed each other in the hallways. I don't see why Vincent would absent from the mansion for the birth and subsequent days entirely.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm a mother and if someone had taken my baby and I had a top-class secret service agent willing to help me in any way possible, I would not have spent two years hanging around a lab ineffectually pleading with the dipshit who took my baby to let me have a look at him. At the very least, the secret agent and I, or just I on my own, would have tortured Hojo until he told me where my child was. Whoever wrote DOC has literally no idea of a mother's killer instincts in defence of her child.

That why the two years thing makes no sense.

 

[jazzflower92]

I'm a mother and if someone had taken my baby and I had a top-class secret service agent willing to help me in any way possible, I would not have spent two years hanging around a lab ineffectually pleading with the dipshit who took my baby to let me have a look at him. At the very least, the secret agent and I, or just I on my own, would have tortured Hojo until he told me where my child was. Whoever wrote DOC has literally no idea of a mother's killer instincts in defence of her child.

That why the two years thing makes no sense.

It again shows Square is crap at being consistent and that it again shows that DOC was one big retcon.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Two years is a very long time for people to be doing nothing. Where was Sephiroth for these two years? Where was Lucrecia? Speaking as a mother, two years is plenty of time for a determined, resourceful woman with a Turk on her side to find out where they've taken her baby. But apparently they were all three - Hojo, Vincent, and Lucrecia - still in Nibelheim, and Lucrecia still had full access to the labs, which is really surprising in view of the feelings she would have had about Hojo by that point. And what would have made Vincent decide he needed to protest about Sephiroth's birth two years after it happened?

Yeah, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I just find it hard to believe that Lucrecia would have stood around and despaired for two years with a Turk by her side that obviously cared deeply for her and done nothing. The fact that Gast was never shown throughout DoC just adds to this confusion. Gast was a little bit more in touch with human emotions than Hojo ever seemed to be.

I know the Ultimania info is canon; I don't need that to be repeated over and over--it's just that the information makes no fucking sense, and I think most of us can agree that it does nothing but mess up story continuity, as did DoC when it was first released and contradicted the OG.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm a mother and if someone had taken my baby and I had a top-class secret service agent willing to help me in any way possible, I would not have spent two years hanging around a lab ineffectually pleading with the dipshit who took my baby to let me have a look at him. At the very least, the secret agent and I, or just I on my own, would have tortured Hojo until he told me where my child was. Whoever wrote DOC has literally no idea of a mother's killer instincts in defence of her child.

That why the two years thing makes no sense.

You wouldn't have experimented on your kid in the first place. =P

Lucrecia's pretty bankrupt on the maternal instincts from the start.

 

[Octo]

You wouldn't have experimented on your kid in the first place. =P

Lucrecia's pretty bankrupt on the maternal instincts from the start.

True. But, I know it happens irl, people have regrets. That 'it's just a bunch of cells' stuff sometimes goes out of the window.

Still doesn't explain the two years thing though.