Hojo and lies

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
You wouldn't have experimented on your kid in the first place. =P

Lucrecia's pretty bankrupt on the maternal instincts from the start.

True. But, I know it happens irl, people have regrets. That 'it's just a bunch of cells' stuff sometimes goes out of the window.

Still doesn't explain the two years thing though.

Yes, people do have regrets, but Hojo as zero regrets in anything other than being wrong in some extents, but that only makes him experiment more.

You'd be surprised what cells can actually do, even in real life. As for Jenova cells, they're more dangerous than any other cells.

And I'm with you about the two years thing.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I guess it just doesn't strike me as that big an issue. We're talking about someone who it's surprising ever had the change of heart that she did. Who knows when it came along, what other research she was doing in the meantime, how long she tried distracting herself with her work, etc.

Lucrecia's only slightly less irrational than Machina, who is probably FF's worst character ever. I don't get confused anymore when she does stupid stuff.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
I guess it just doesn't strike me as that big an issue. We're talking about someone who it's surprising ever had the change of heart that she did. Who knows when it came along, what other research she was doing in the meantime, how long she tried distracting herself with her work, etc.

Lucrecia's only slightly less irrational than Machina, who is probably FF's worst character ever. I don't get confused anymore when she does stupid stuff.

Yeah, I like characters who have a change of heart, and given the optain of the original game, I find the optain to not fight the Turks as the true optain in seeing them for the last time and not seeing them until two years later. Similiar thing with Rufus. I respect them and Lucrecia that way. Same with Reeve.

Yeah, Machina did do a pretty stupid thing in Type-0, didn't he?

But the worst FF character I can actually think of is Snow who irritates me to no end, always calling himself a hero when he always does something totally stupid.
 
With all due respect, Tres, you're making the same mistake DoC's writers did.

You're implying the following scenario: Lucrecia gives birth, Hojo (and Gast) whisk the child away without Lucrecia ever getting to see him, she's basically okay with this and the two of them carry on working together as if nothing happened, with Vincent continue to bodyguard them as if nothing happened, except maybe she asks from time to time if she can see the baby - but maybe she doesn't even want to see "her baby", maybe she just wants to see "the experiment" - and then two years later for some reason Vincent decides it's time to object to the situation, and Hojo shoots him, at which point Lucrecia starts getting hysterical about access to her son.

This scenario can only work if Sephiroth, as "her baby", really didn't matter to her at all, but then what could possibly have happened to make Vincent, after two years, object to the situation? It can't have been something that happened to Lucrecia, because she's still in the lab, looking perfectly healthy and with full access to all the equipment, after he has been shot. That's a big chunk of untold plot.
 
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Sprites

Waiting for something
AKA
Gems
The original game seemed to suggest that Lucrecia wanted to see her child because he was her child and not just because he was an experiment. If she felt that way, she'd never have mentioned about never being able to hold him or see him.
 
That's right. I got the impression she was driven by mother love and not scientific curiosity. So, as a mother, there is just no way she could have forgiven Hojo, or continued to work with him, meekly and obediently following his orders for two years in the hope that one day he'd let her see her child. Frankly, only a man could imagine that happening.
 

lithiumkatana17

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lith
I love all of this healthy discussion about a part of the plot that I absolutely love. And although it may only add to the frustration, I look forward to seeing how the remake handles this. I can't wait for the party to find Lucrecia in the crystal cave in full HD, and we can see all of those subtle facial expressions of the party members as she asks about Sephiroth.

Unf. Can't wait.
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
I just checked this thread and after reading up on it, I had no clue that the Ultimania put those scenes as two years after Sephiroth's birth, because like many others here, I thought the scene with Vincent protesting and getting shot happened while Lucrecia was still pregnant, and then she had Sephiroth, and then shortly after Vincent sees her (while he's inside the tube) begging to see her son. :closedmonster:
Definitely screwy if the 'canon timeline' puts those events as two years after Sephiroth's birth. :wacky:

Octo said:
Lets assume he learned the Real Truth

1) He would still be distressed to learn of his 'creation', he would still feel betrayed by professor Gast.

2) He would probably be disgusted to learn Hojo was his father

3) He would probably be upset that his birth Mother Lucrecia thought so little of him

He'd probably still go crazy, and assuming that Jenova had no influence over him (and I'm not sure that it didn't) he'd probably want revenge on those particular people responsible - Including Shinra who financed it all.

This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche. :monster:

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:
 

lithiumkatana17

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lith
This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche. :monster:

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:

WRITE A GOD DAMN FIC I GOTTA KNOW HOW THIS STORY GOES.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
That's right. I got the impression she was driven by mother love and not scientific curiosity. So, as a mother, there is just no way she could have forgiven Hojo, or continued to work with him, meekly and obediently following his orders for two years in the hope that one day he'd let her see her child. Frankly, only a man could imagine that happening.
Let me stop you right there. :monster:

Even today, almost 18 months after our son was born, my girlfriend would tell you that I'm the one who displays what she considers most of the maternal instincts, who had The Glow while she was pregnant, and who just has to look at him to feel all-consuming unconditional love. She's said all of this as recently as the past month. And she says that even while she is an amazing mom. My little man is such a lucky little boy to have her for his mommy. I'm so proud of her, and feel more lucky and honored than I can put into words to be on this journey with her.

This is a long-winded way of me saying "I get what you're trying to say." But it's precisely in part because I don't believe the character we're talking about would that I find her so detestable, revel in talking shit about her at every possible opportunity, and place her only slightly above the franchise's biggest dumbass ever (who fell as far from grace as getting tricked into willingly murdering his schoolmates in "vengeance" for a dead brother he didn't even remember). :monster:

Whether as a man, a father, or anything else, I can't rationalize anything that woman did. I can only speak to what, not how.

With all due respect, Tres, you're making the same mistake DoC's writers did.

You're implying the following scenario: Lucrecia gives birth, Hojo (and Gast) whisk the child away without Lucrecia ever getting to see him, she's basically okay with this and the two of them carry on working together as if nothing happened, with Vincent continue to bodyguard them as if nothing happened, except maybe she asks from time to time if she can see the baby - but maybe she doesn't even want to see "her baby", maybe she just wants to see "the experiment" - and then two years later for some reason Vincent decides it's time to object to the situation, and Hojo shoots him, at which point Lucrecia starts getting hysterical about access to her son.

This scenario can only work if Sephiroth, as "her baby", really didn't matter to her at all, but then what could possibly have happened to make Vincent, after two years, object to the situation? It can't have been something that happened to Lucrecia, because she's still in the lab, looking perfectly healthy and with full access to all the equipment, after he has been shot. That's a big chunk of untold plot.

You answered your own question: Perhaps Lucrecia finally started to recognize "Hey, that was a baby. My baby!" and feel like the miserable piece of shit she was. And then, young Vincent -- who had the worst taste in women, like, ever -- was upset about it. "Why did you let this happen!?" he awkwardly demands. He's told to be silent, then shot. Lucrecia actually saves him, but otherwise continues being useless and awful.

Your question about how she could accept any of this applies whether she started to feel like a mother should two seconds, two days, two weeks, two months or two years after Seph was born. She still didn't do everything she could have.

Christ's sake, she had the planet's kill switch locked in a tube, the means to "let it off the leash," so to speak (and restrain it again) -- and she never made an effort to use it? Neither as a bargaining chip, a threat, or a last resort nuclear option?

She just "meekly and obediently," as you described it, muttered "I can't take it anymore" and went to lock herself in a cave. Utterly useless.
 
I said "only a man" not "only any man". :monster: I was referring to the script-writer, not you.

So, let's say that Lucrecia was able to accept Hojo and Gast taking her child away, and Hojo and Gast were able to feel they could still trust her around the lab working on all their delicate equipment, and let's say everybody was cool with Vincent remaining in his post for another two years (all three of which are improbable things, but never mind) - then what could have triggered Vincent to suddenly start raising objections two years after the fact? I would find the whole "two year scenario" a lot easier to accept if we weren't missing this piece of the story.

I could even believe in Lucretia undergoing a gradual change of heart, a slow awakening of her maternal feelings, and Vincent feeling he has to take action as he sees her distress increasing.... But we're never shown any of this, so we can't say it happened. Moreover, in this scenario it seems that Lucrecia doesn't shut herself in a crystal out of remorse for Sephiroth and Vincent and all the other crap she did, but only because of her failure to save Vincent's life. There really isn't anything to suggest she suffered a belated attack of maternal instinct.

But here's another thing.... wouldn't the Jenova cells in Lucrecia draw her towards Sephiroth?
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche. :monster:

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:

WRITE A GOD DAMN FIC I GOTTA KNOW HOW THIS STORY GOES.

I uh, I was thinking about it as I wrote it on here, actually :wacky:

Let's see if I do :awesome:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I said "only a man" not "only any man". :monster: I was referring to the script-writer, not you.

So, let's say that Lucrecia was able to accept Hojo and Gast taking her child away, and Hojo and Gast were able to feel they could still trust her around the lab working on all their delicate equipment, and let's say everybody was cool with Vincent remaining in his post for another two years (all three of which are improbable things, but never mind) - then what could have triggered Vincent to suddenly start raising objections two years after the fact? I would find the whole "two year scenario" a lot easier to accept if we weren't missing this piece of the story.

I could even believe in Lucretia undergoing a gradual change of heart, a slow awakening of her maternal feelings, and Vincent feeling he has to take action as he sees her distress increasing.... But we're never shown any of this, so we can't say it happened. Moreover, in this scenario it seems that Lucrecia doesn't shut herself in a crystal out of remorse for Sephiroth and Vincent and all the other crap she did, but only because of her failure to save Vincent's life. There really isn't anything to suggest she suffered a belated attack of maternal instinct.
Isn't that indicated by her demand to be allowed to see him, and the things she says when Vincent finds her in the original game?

I got quite the opppsite impression from her locking herself away over Vincent -- more like the Vincent thing was a side concern. The one thing she'd actually kinda fix to be less awful. She doesn't ask about him how when they're reunited in the original game, just about Sephiroth.

Lic said:
But here's another thing.... wouldn't the Jenova cells in Lucrecia draw her towards Sephiroth?
I've always thought they did, and that this is why she had been recently dreaming of him in the original -- i.e. that was how the Reunion instinct manifested for her.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche.

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:

WRITE A GOD DAMN FIC I GOTTA KNOW HOW THIS STORY GOES.

There's a fanfic series that's closer to what you have in mind that I've read a few times.

Here's the link to it if you're interested.

http://https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301689/1/Irony-of-Fate

It's different from what I'm used to, but I think it's more to your taste.
 

lithiumkatana17

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lith
There's a fanfic series that's closer to what you have in mind that I've read a few times.

Here's the link to it if you're interested.

http://https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301689/1/Irony-of-Fate

It's different from what I'm used to, but I think it's more to your taste.

tumblr_mdjr28tE771qbfq3po1_500.gif



I have homework to do.

I shouldn't.


:closedmonster:
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I just checked this thread and after reading up on it, I had no clue that the Ultimania put those scenes as two years after Sephiroth's birth, because like many others here, I thought the scene with Vincent protesting and getting shot happened while Lucrecia was still pregnant, and then she had Sephiroth, and then shortly after Vincent sees her (while he's inside the tube) begging to see her son. :closedmonster:
Definitely screwy if the 'canon timeline' puts those events as two years after Sephiroth's birth. :wacky:

Octo said:
Lets assume he learned the Real Truth

1) He would still be distressed to learn of his 'creation', he would still feel betrayed by professor Gast.

2) He would probably be disgusted to learn Hojo was his father

3) He would probably be upset that his birth Mother Lucrecia thought so little of him

He'd probably still go crazy, and assuming that Jenova had no influence over him (and I'm not sure that it didn't) he'd probably want revenge on those particular people responsible - Including Shinra who financed it all.

This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche. :monster:

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:

And I think Sephiroth would have been the main character of the game, in contrast with Cloud.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
But if Sephiroth went against ShinRa only, then he wouldn't burn down Nibelhiem and might actually tell Zack and even convince Cloud that ShinRa is bad news and get them to rebel as well, so that Cloud wouldn't end up with Mako Poisoning or head problems, and Tifa would've still been in Nibelhiem as well.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
There's a fanfic series that's closer to what you have in mind that I've read a few times.

Here's the link to it if you're interested.

http://https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301689/1/Irony-of-Fate

It's different from what I'm used to, but I think it's more to your taste.

I have homework to do.

I shouldn't.

It's up to you. Maybe you can read it after you've done your homework? I was just trying to help, and no, there's no Genesis or Angeal in that story that I linked.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
So, let's say that Lucrecia was able to accept Hojo and Gast taking her child away, and Hojo and Gast were able to feel they could still trust her around the lab working on all their delicate equipment, and let's say everybody was cool with Vincent remaining in his post for another two years (all three of which are improbable things, but never mind)

Why are all those things improbable? The first one is a tough pill but if Lucretia does fall in line, why is it then a stretch that Gast keep her on? He already kept the crazy father. And if Nibelheim was indeed used as the site of experiments for two more years, why wouldn't Vincent keep guard? He hadn't done anything wrong yet.
 
So, let's say that Lucrecia was able to accept Hojo and Gast taking her child away, and Hojo and Gast were able to feel they could still trust her around the lab working on all their delicate equipment, and let's say everybody was cool with Vincent remaining in his post for another two years (all three of which are improbable things, but never mind)

Why are all those things improbable? The first one is a tough pill but if Lucretia does fall in line, why is it then a stretch that Gast keep her on? He already kept the crazy father. And if Nibelheim was indeed used as the site of experiments for two more years, why wouldn't Vincent keep guard? He hadn't done anything wrong yet.

I think it is improbable that Lucrecia would fall in line in the first place, for reasons I've already given. But even if she did, she has served her purpose. Gast keeps Hojo on because Hojo is a brilliant scientist (apparently). All Lucrecia has on her resume is a thesis that everybody laughs at and a stint as a human test tube, plus she's emotionally compromised. If she's not emotionally comprised it would make it likelier that they might keep her, but if she's not emotionally compromised, then why would she suddenly change her mind and start demanding to see her child? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but if you want people to believe it happened you have to write the story showing how it happened. The image being painted by the two-years scenario is that everybody, Vincent and Lucrecia included, were just fine with using Lucrecia's baby as a human experiment and having it taken away from her the moment it was born - until one day, for no ostensible reason, they weren't. Psychologically it doesn't hold water, and thus is poor writing.
 
Well, Vincent was never okay with it. And Lucrecia's fucking psychotic.

Lucrecia being psychotic is a matter of headcanon, not canon, as far as I know, but if one sees her as a psychotic then I guess it's credible that she might suddenly and randomly change her mind about the whole project and start wanting to see her son. And if she's actually psychotic why would Gast and Hojo want her anywhere near their lab? As I said before, she's served her purpose.

Vincent was never okay with it, but after more than two years of getting used to it, accepting it (even if he doesn't like it), working closely with the project people every day, he suddenly decides to voice his opinion because...?

I'm just saying that the two-years thing is bad writing. It's bad writing because it doesn't properly set the characters up for their volte-face. Beyond that, whether or not it makes sense depends on how one characterises the personalities involved. As with most of the characters, there's a lot of room for manoeuvre, interpretation-wise.
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
This.... actually made me suddenly consider a different way VII's story could've gone. IF Sephiroth came across alllll the truth and stuff, instead of just the half-truths and assumptions (like the whole thinking of Jenova being a Cetra at first), he could've been instead focused only on Shinra's destruction. He could've been a merciless figurehead of Avalanche. :monster:

Imagine Cloud and Co working with him and having moral dilemmas if Sephiroth was so bent on revenge he would take out anyone in the company, innocent or no. What a different game it would've been. Jenova could've been more of the 'big bad' in the end. Maybe she would've taken control of Sephiroth because of his raging emotions, and you'd still have to kill him.

Or something, anyways, continue :awesome:

WRITE A GOD DAMN FIC I GOTTA KNOW HOW THIS STORY GOES.

I uh, I was thinking about it as I wrote it on here, actually :wacky:

Let's see if I do :awesome:

May or may not have spent a couple hours last night writing something from Sephiroth's pov. :closedmonster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Lic said:
Vincent was never okay with it, but after more than two years of getting used to it, accepting it (even if he doesn't like it), working closely with the project people every day, he suddenly decides to voice his opinion because...?
Perhaps because now he knows Lucrecia is sad about it.


I'm not saying it has to be good writing. That would be silly in a discussion about Vincent and Lucrecia.
 
Well, you asked why I thought two years made no sense and I explained why. You're not obliged to agree with me, especially since your Lucrecia appears to be a very different woman from mine. But to me, it still makes no sense.
 
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