Is the Planet capable of permanently ridding itself of Jenova?

[ForceStealer]

Hm, I never thought about that before, if someone with Geostigma never touched the water, the black wounds would stay there, but it would no longer hurt or ooze. Well, perhaps the wounds would heal naturally eventually. ...Interesting

 

[X-SOLDIER]

That's true, but that doesn't change the fact that it was still purified and made clean by her water. Something was washed out of it. You can't cleanse something intangible as a thought or "will", X. It's Sephiroth's desire and thoughts that cause the Jenova cells to cause the stigma.

You can purify/remove/cleanse the will of Sephiroth from the cells though. Curing the disease would cleanse the cells of their command to attack the host's body, which is essentially the same as removing them from Sephiroth's "will." It's the same as deleting a program from a machine.

The physical cells aren't the issue, it's what they're being forced/programmed/willed to do. The cause is Sephiroth's will causingt he Jenova Cells to attack the body, NOT the Jenova Cells presence in the body.

It's a similiar situation to another Square game, Parasite Eve - Mitochondria within human cells have their own DNA, and are a foreign body, and prodive energy to the cells to allow them to function more effectively. They have a symbiotic relationship, and thus work mutually in human bodies. In the game, Eve could control the Mitochondria in anyone & manupulated people & turned them into Monsters. However, when Eve was killed things reverted to normal. The other way of avoiding this was being far enough away that the signal/will/influence of Eve couldn't effect the cells.

There are two factors that pollute the Negative Lifestream; Sephiroth's will, and Jenova cells. How does Aerith's rain cleanse something intangible such as "will" or a "thought?" Furthermore, Sephiroth was already defeated. So his will would've been smashed anyways. The only thing sustaining the impurity would be Jenova cells. Even though a Negative Lifestream never existed before, the Lifestream was still unclean by Jenova's influence.

As I stated before, it's as simple as removing a program from a machine. It's essentially cleansing the Jenova Cells from Sephiroth's command. There's also the matter of healing the Human Cells that sustained injury - something that is exactly what Aerith's magic is used for in FFVII. Water's more cleansing than destructive, and bringing the cells back to a dormant state makes sense for what's happening than it destroying the cells.

Why is it hard to believe that the actuall cells themselves have been destroyed? What will it take for you to believe they're gone?

Because the Jenova cell's main trait is that they continue to reform from the Lifestream, back into cells, and recombine, and eventually result in Reunion. If they were capable of being destroyed so easily, it doesn't make sense that they survived completely dormant and inactive for 2000 years, and neither the Cetra or the Planet could manage to destroy them during that time, but Aerith manages to completely eliminate them through magically enhanced rain. Sephiroth in his weakened state could easily loose his control over the cells though, and him loosing control over them also stops Geostigma, and the rain can act like a cure upon the damages tissue.

Aerith's the rain cleanses/cures Geostigma, and as we've stated - the cause of Geostigma & the Negative Lifestream is Sephiroth's will. It doesn't state anywhere that the rain is capable of destroying Jenova Cells. And with the ability to heal Geostigma's effects being capable with medial healing, and Sephiroth being defeated, there's no reason to believe that it also destroys alien cellular matter.

Why would Aerith willingly leave Sephiroth's gene and mimetic legacy within people if she's capable of destroying it? They're hardly benign at all. As you've stated, they're capable of being used again if a powerful will acts on them, and they can mutate people and turn them into monsters, as seen in the Cetra and Hojo. Why would they be left behind?

Point being that she's curing people of Geostigma and it's effects, and preventing the cells withing those that are cured from continuing to be manipulated (Cloud is still healed while Sephiroth is alive). There's nothing to suggest that the Jenova Cells are being destroyed by the cure, or even that Aerith is capable of doing so.


X

 

[Nolok]

As Sephiroth stated in AC, he wanted the Negative Lifestream to corrode the planet, and thus contaminate the entire Lifestream and put it under his control.

Right, I agree with you there. Geostigma allowed Sephiroth to do that.

As stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Case of Denzel, and ACC, Jenova cells within the body, coupled with Sephiroth's will, is the cause of Geostigma.

THIS is where I get lost.

Checking 10th Anniversary Ultimania: Although he was defeated in the war surrounding Meteor, and had once fallen into a Mako Reactor, he did not return to the Planet but instead was diffused into the Lifestream. Elements from his body flowed into the atmosphere, and the rejection of these heterogeneous elements was called “Geostigma”.

This still says that "Geostigma" is the 'rejection of these heterogeneous elements'.

Is ACC or Case of Denzel the one that states that Geostigma is cause by Jenova Cells and Sephiroths Will?

Now if the creators state Aerith cured and healed Geostigma, that must mean she eliminated the cause. The definition clearly state the cause is Jenova cells within the body, harming the body and causing the body to try to fight off the substance. The Jenova cells are the disease, which are being made malignant by Sephiroth.

Does ACC explain that Sephiroth made Jenova Cells malignant?

If Aerith is curing the disease, the physical symptoms of Geostigma, she must be acting on the physical cause of the diease, which are the actual cells. She can't cure a thought, or "will" belonging to another person. She can't remove Sephiroth's intent of causing harm via Jenova cells. As Lifestream Black shows, Aerith couldn't come close to Sephiroth because of how dangerous and threatening he was within the Lifestream. She had to have acted on the actual biological cause of the disease, which are the Jenova cells. If she just made the body accept the cells or anything else, they would've been harmed by the cells anyways.

But, the physical symptoms of Geostigma are the black spots, which is apparently caused from the rejection of Jenova Cells?

 

[Makoeyes987]

You can purify/remove/cleanse the will of Sephiroth from the cells though. Curing the disease would cleanse the cells of their command to attack the host's body, which is essentially the same as removing them from Sephiroth's "will." It's the same as deleting a program from a machine.

How do you stop a thought? His will is intangible. His will and desire to harm the planet and its people wouldn't stop with the cells being told to stop attacking the body. His desire still remains and would continue to tell the cells to be malignant.

The physical cells aren't the issue, it's what they're being forced/programmed/willed to do. The cause is Sephiroth's will causingt he Jenova Cells to attack the body, NOT the Jenova Cells presence in the body.

They are the issue and listed as part of the cause in all definitions of the disease. You can't remove the biological element and cause of the disease. Sephiroth's will is one half of it. The 10th Anniversary says so clearly.

It's a similiar situation to another Square game, Parasite Eve - Mitochondria within human cells have their own DNA, and are a foreign body, and prodive energy to the cells to allow them to function more effectively. They have a symbiotic relationship, and thus work mutually in human bodies. In the game, Eve could control the Mitochondria in anyone & manupulated people & turned them into Monsters. However, when Eve was killed things reverted to normal. The other way of avoiding this was being far enough away that the signal/will/influence of Eve couldn't effect the cells.

That's a good analogy, however there was never a plot element in the game that was stated to have cured people of mitochondrial infection. Aerith's rain would be that cure. Aerith's rain didn't eliminate or kill Sephiroth, which would be the equivalent necessity in order to stop Geostigma without actually removing the Jenova cells.

As I stated before, it's as simple as removing a program from a machine. It's essentially cleansing the Jenova Cells from Sephiroth's command. There's also the matter of healing the Human Cells that sustained injury - something that is exactly what Aerith's magic is used for in FFVII. Water's more cleansing than destructive, and bringing the cells back to a dormant state makes sense for what's happening than it destroying the cells.

Except the program wouldn't really be gone because the source code (i.e. Sephiroth) would still remain and his hostility would remain. As long as he exists and wills it, Geostigma would remain in effect through Jenova cells.

Because the Jenova cell's main trait is that they continue to reform from the Lifestream, back into cells, and recombine, and eventually result in Reunion. If they were capable of being destroyed so easily, it doesn't make sense that they survived completely dormant and inactive for 2000 years, and neither the Cetra or the Planet could manage to destroy them during that time, but Aerith manages to completely eliminate them through magically enhanced rain. Sephiroth in his weakened state could easily loose his control over the cells though, and him loosing control over them also stops Geostigma, and the rain can act like a cure upon the damages tissue.

It survived for 2000 years because they were left mummified in a geological stratum. Furthermore, if Jenova was as immortal as you asserted, then none of the bodies would have been capable of being defeated and Jenova would've assumed control of its Reunion itself before AC. All that remained was a small piece of its neck that didn't try to regenerate. And after that, nothing more was left when Sephiroth was defeated.

And you're still not accounting for the fact the purifying rain purged the Lifestream of the biological impurity within it and made it clean. How would her rain, that just as you put it, cures damage tissue, be able to purify ethereal lifestream? The lifestream wouldn't be functioning with Sephiroth's will anymore so what's being done to it? You can't say its his will being removed.

Aerith's the rain cleanses/cures Geostigma, and as we've stated - the cause of Geostigma & the Negative Lifestream is Sephiroth's will. It doesn't state anywhere that the rain is capable of destroying Jenova Cells. And with the ability to heal Geostigma's effects being capable with medial healing, and Sephiroth being defeated, there's no reason to believe that it also destroys alien cellular matter.

No. You're ignoring the fact the creators themselves equate Geostigma with Jenova cell presence as well.

Geostigma

「 AC 」

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.

It's akin to AIDs, dude. AIDs is caused by the HIV virus. Geostigma is caused by the Jenova cell infection. You can't cure AIDs without first tackling the viral infection caused by HIV. Geostigma is the result of the Jenova cells in the body attacking the body and causing an immune response.

Point being that she's curing people of Geostigma and it's effects, and preventing the cells withing those that are cured from continuing to be manipulated (Cloud is still healed while Sephiroth is alive). There's nothing to suggest that the Jenova Cells are being destroyed by the cure, or even that Aerith is capable of doing so.


X

That's a half assed cure then. She isn't fully curing the syndrome of Geostigma where the root of the disease is the actual biological substance of Jenova cells.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

How do you stop a thought? His will is intangible. His will and desire to harm the planet and its people wouldn't stop with the cells being told to stop attacking the body. His desire still remains and would continue to tell the cells to be malignant.

Aerith's cure isn't destroying Sephiroth's will. It's purging the command from within the Jenova cells, and returning the cells to the command of the host body. I'll get into detail on this below.

They are the issue and listed as part of the cause in all definitions of the disease. You can't remove the biological element and cause of the disease. Sephiroth's will is one half of it. The 10th Anniversary says so clearly.

The presence of Jenova cells allows someone to contract Geostigma, of that I am totally aware, and agree. There's no way that someone could have a disease without a physical object inside of them. However, the presence of the cells alone isn't an issue. They're benign, or in most cases beneficial to the host, most of the time granting the host powerful abilities.

Within the FFVII universe, Jenova cells can still be controlled by "their" mind, (previously Jenova and now Sephiroth), even when seperated from the body - this is what allows them to gather and cause Reunion. When the will that controls the Jenova cells commands them to do something, they respond, just like moving your arm, even if they're not attached. That's how Sephiroth is able to manipulate those that have Jenova cells within them i.e. Cloud in FFVII, and cause the cells to attack their hosts in Advent Children.

If you remove the ability for the cells to communicate with "their" mind, they'll go back to responding to the host body's commands. As a cell that can mimic other beings, they wouldn't be detected by the immune system as a foreign body, and would continue to remain in the system, and provide nothing, or the benefits that they previously did.

- Geostigma refers to the effects of the host body's immune system fighting against the Jenova Cells in their body. This is caused by the fact that the normally dormant cells are being detected as a foreign substance, and are being attacked by the body's immune system. The Jenova cell's greater strength over the Human's cells means that eventually it will kill the host.
- Geostigma does not refer to anyone with Jenova Cells within their body - this being more fully clarified by the fact that we know that there are individuals with Jenova cells in their bodies after Advent Childrem, but there isn't anyone with Geostigma as was stated in the guide.
- Therefore, if the cells are not being forced to attack the host body, and the physical symptoms (bruising, black pus, etc) have gone, and or been healed, the individual will no longer be suffering from Geostigma. Their Geostigma will be gone, but the Jenova cells remain.

That's a good analogy, however there was never a plot element in the game that was stated to have cured people of mitochondrial infection. Aerith's rain would be that cure. Aerith's rain didn't eliminate or kill Sephiroth, which would be the equivalent necessity in order to stop Geostigma without actually removing the Jenova cells.

The cells have to be returned to the control of the host. In Parasite Eve, Aya's Mitochondria is different and allows her to maintain control of her body, and even use her Mitochondria to gain unique powers. Essentially Aerith's rain cut of the Jenova Cells within a host from recieving commands from Sephiroth. It affected the Cells, not Sephiroth's will. Covering people's ears is essentially the same as preventing someone from talking to them, except like someone's will - you can't stop the words once their out, but you can still have ways to prevent them from being heard.

Except the program wouldn't really be gone because the source code (i.e. Sephiroth) would still remain and his hostility would remain. As long as he exists and wills it, Geostigma would remain in effect through Jenova cells.

The 'program' would still be removed from the cells if the host body is put back in control of the cells, and stopped from recieving commands from the source code.

It survived for 2000 years because they were left mummified in a geological stratum. Furthermore, if Jenova was as immortal as you asserted, then none of the bodies would have been capable of being defeated and Jenova would've assumed control of its Reunion itself before AC. All that remained was a small piece of its neck that didn't try to regenerate. And after that, nothing more was left when Sephiroth was defeated.

And you're still not accounting for the fact the purifying rain purged the Lifestream of the biological impurity within it and made it clean. How would her rain, that just as you put it, cures damage tissue, be able to purify ethereal lifestream? The lifestream wouldn't be functioning with Sephiroth's will anymore so what's being done to it? You can't say its his will being removed.

The bodies that have Jenova Cells can still be destroyed. I'm not saying that they're invulnerable at all. The cells just reform even when ripped apart. Without any will to guide them, they're at the command of the host bodies that they're inside. With Jenova's head being the last remaining un-integrated cluster of Jenova cells it's still essentially a seperated limb of Sephiroth as the mind - it can't form Reunion on its own.

All spells use Lifestream energy in a way - materia is just condensed Lifestream. When cells break apart in the FFVII Universe, they become Lifestream, so it's not very hard to iamgine that something that could cure cells could also purify Lifestream. The Lifestream refers to the current running through the Planet, and that current that is the life of the Planet is now free of the Negative Lifestream that was trying to strangle it.

No. You're ignoring the fact the creators themselves equate Geostigma with Jenova cell presence as well.

No I'm not. You're misinterpriting it as anyone with Jenova cells that was suffering from the disease Geostigma, even after the body stops attacking the cells has been removed still have Geostigma. As stated before - if Sephiroth's will is destroyed, and the cells remain dormant in someone's body, they no longer have Geostigma. Proof being - everyone in Kalm in DoC with Jenova Cells as seen by the Deepground soldiers doesn't ahve Geostigma, as Geostigma was stated to have been cured in AC.

It's akin to AIDs, dude. AIDs is caused by the HIV virus. Geostigma is caused by the Jenova cell infection. You can't cure AIDs without first tackling the viral infection caused by HIV. Geostigma is the result of the Jenova cells in the body attacking the body and causing an immune response.

That's a half assed cure then. She isn't fully curing the syndrome of Geostigma where the root of the disease is the actual biological substance of Jenova cells.

If Geostigma was caused by the biological substance of Jenova Cells, then any SOLDIER would have been suffering from Geostigma long before FFVII. This is not how it works. The root of the disease is that the cells being recognized as a foreign and hostile substance, instead of integrating with the host's bodies like they typically do. This is caused because of Sephiroth's influence on the cells making them hostile, instead of being dormant/beneficial, and meaning that they aren't fully under the control of the host.


X

 

[Ryushikaze]

It seems that if the ability is directly affecting the cells in the frst place, it seems sort of counterintuitive to just shut them off rather than than go ahead and eliminate or flush them.

 

[Andalegogo]

But neutralizing the cells or putting them into some sort of stasis was probably the best option Aerith had. It was clearly the best that the ancient Cetra plus the Planet could do.

I find it easier believing that Aerith utilized the Cetra powers used in the past rather than her sudden discovery or creation of an end-all Jenova-killer.

There's been no indication that Aerith developed Jenova-killing magic, but we do know that a "Jenova-deterrent" already exists thanks to the ancient Cetra. Couple this deterrent with the healing properties of Great Gospel, and you've got just enough time and energy to do what Cloud did in the end.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Except the Cetra DIDN'T use a Jenova Deterrent to block off Jenova's powers, they just physically sealed her away. What Aerith did at least shut off their communication function, if not outright destroyed them.

And there were several thousand years for the Cetra and the planet to discover how to shut down and destroy Jenova.

And yes, they can. Jenova cells cannot be immutable. If a thing is mutable, it can be destroyed.
The very concept that there's degradation of harvested cells means that without a pure living organic Jenova specimen, individual cells will eventually degrade into non pure cells, and eventually the 'Jenova' cells will be totally broken down into non exotic matter.

Jenova only lasted because she was preserved.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

But neutralizing the cells or putting them into some sort of stasis was probably the best option Aerith had. It was clearly the best that the ancient Cetra plus the Planet could do.

I find it easier believing that Aerith utilized the Cetra powers used in the past rather than her sudden discovery or creation of an end-all Jenova-killer.

There's been no indication that Aerith developed Jenova-killing magic, but we do know that a "Jenova-deterrent" already exists thanks to the ancient Cetra. Couple this deterrent with the healing properties of Great Gospel, and you've got just enough time and energy to do what Cloud did in the end.

This is exactly the point that I'm making. I've shown the neutralization will accomplish the healing that we see in Advent Children. Until someone can provide proof of some kinda that Aerith is capable of, or a reason that she would be able to, destroy Jenova cells that nothing else has been able to previously, there's no reason to think that they were destroyed.

Especially with the fact that after Sephiroth's will is destroyed, the people in Kalm that had Geostigma still have their Jenova cells, but their Geostigma heals, even without Aerith's water. Proof that their Geostigma is healed is that it is officially stated to only occur in AC, and the people in Kalm during DoC still have their Jenova Cells, but no Geostigma. Therefore - there's no reason to think that anyone who was cured by Aerith's spell would have had theirs destroyed.


X

 

[Ryushikaze]

Except those people showed no signs of what Geostigma is, which is the black spots. Having Jenova cells doesn't automatically mean Geostigma, else Johnny'd have it.

And technically, we don't know those folks had Geostigma proper, and I'd be curious to how Deepground would even TEST for that except for the presence or absence of Jenova cells.

While Aerith's power cured all who were affected by it, not everyone was. It only covered edge as a rain, so anyone who didn't have signs of Geostigma would still have Jenova cells without having the actual disease which was caused by Sephiroth's will causing the cells to freak out.

And 'causing the cells to stop being able to send/recieve but otherwise be untouched' is a much more out their ability and claim than 'cause the cells to break down'.

 

[Andalegogo]

Using magic to neutralize the cells has been done in the past though.

Another matter is the fact that the UOGs tend to describe Jenova as being almost impossible to truly destroy and a constant threat thanks to Reunion. I imagine something of merit might be mentioned in one of the official sources about Aerith suddenly being able to accomplish something no one else before her, including the planet, could accomplish, which would be destroying Jenova cells.

But there's really nothing to suggest that, while there is plenty that would imply the J-cells might have survived with their uncanny resilience. The greatest weapon against Jenova would be the same magic that the Cetra used to seal her, so it'd make sense for Aerith to use that in the struggle against Sephiroth.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Jenova managed to survive for 2000 years, and was still capable of thought - albeit not stronger than that of Sephiroth's. Even so - that shows that her cells are incredibly resilient in actually staying alive, and not just being preserved. The whole idea behind Reunion is that even if you ripped her apart, and spread her pieces all over the world, they would reform. They have the ability to reform, because they can receive commands from her/the controlling will to cause them to gather. That's one insanely powerful cellular makeup.

I don't see how a spell that just cuts Jenova Cells off from their dominating will/mind/presence that they're not physically attached to, - thus returning them to the control of the host body, and stopping the body from fighting them is any less of a cure. Not to mention, how that is somehow more of an ability than destroying cells that haven't managed to be permanently eradicated in the history of the FFVII. I also have yet to see anyone mention how or why Aerith could be capable of destroying the cells to begin with.

Can we find the history bit about Jenova from the game / UOG and copy paste it so that we can get specifics on what happened in the past / the extent of Jenova's abilities?


X

 

[Ryushikaze]

Jenova cells are hardy, but they were frozen, and there are earth bacteria that can resume functioning after being encased in ice for hundred of years.

In any case, the planet has had 2000 years to figure out the Jenova problem. Why the solution would be 'cut the phone line' and not 'smash it all' is beyond me.

Especially given its other countermeasures happen to be known as WEAPON.

Also, someone mentioned the only persons we ever see doing floaty jumps are Cloud and Sephy, but that's blatantly wrong. There's Jenova free Vincent, who can outright FLY for brief periods, especially as Chaos, purely thanks to Spirit Energy power.

 

[Arianna]

My opinion (right now, since we don't know anything more) is that the planet may not be able to fully recover from Jenova's influence. Or, it's still going to be a very long time to actually purge her from every part and parcel of the planet. Either way, I do not see Jenova out of the picture for future Compilation events - even if it's simply via Genesis and/or Sephiroth that she has any 'part' in the story.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well they seem to be able to be destroyed through force as well...Each time the team destroyed a piece of Jenova, and finally defeating Synthesis, they destroyed a huge portion of them. And in AC, Cloud supposedly destroyed the largest collection of them still in existence, her head (or whatever it was) in destroying Sephiroth.
So I would guess that the planet could could rid itself of it if everyone with Jenova cells were killed - and Deepground killed people with Jenova cells in droves during DC. And as long as none of those bodies fell directly into the Lifestream, the remaining cells must be few and far between. Even if the rain didn't heal it.

Wouldn't one way to answer this be to determine if anyone was killed in Edge by Deepground or if they were all captured? Because if the rain only cut off the cells' communicative link, DG still would have killed them. But if it destroyed the cells, DG would have captured everyone. And...you don't find any dead people except the WRO guy, which would seem to imply that the rain did destroy the cells.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well they seem to be able to be destroyed through force as well...Each time the team destroyed a piece of Jenova, and finally defeating Synthesis, they destroyed a huge portion of them. And in AC, Cloud supposedly destroyed the largest collection of them still in existence, her head (or whatever it was) in destroying Sephiroth.
So I would guess that the planet could could rid itself of it if everyone with Jenova cells were killed - and Deepground killed people with Jenova cells in droves during DC. And as long as none of those bodies fell directly into the Lifestream, the remaining cells must be few and far between. Even if the rain didn't heal it.

Wouldn't one way to answer this be to determine if anyone was killed in Edge by Deepground or if they were all captured? Because if the rain only cut off the cells' communicative link, DG still would have killed them. But if it destroyed the cells, DG would have captured everyone. And...you don't find any dead people except the WRO guy, which would seem to imply that the rain did destroy the cells.

On the flying bit - I forgot about the other floating people (Vincent has wings as Chaos also), and thus recalled my statement there. There are too many other abilities and experimentations to limit Cloud's movement just to the enhancements of Jenova Cells.

At any rate.

With the party attacking Jenova Birth, Life, Death, and Synthesis, I always had the impression that it was just continuing to regenerate. Defeating Jenova & someone with Jenova Cells is different than destroying the cells themselves. You could rip it apart, but if you're not somehow destorying the Cells, it'll just regenerate by orchestrating Reunion. I think that the reasoning for going after Jenova's head in Advent Children was that, after the defeat of Sephiroth and Jenova Synthesis, there isn't a high enough concentration of Jenova Cells anywhere else for Sephiroth to be able to revive himself.

Also as far as reasoning for Aerith attacking the signal rather than the Cells: Aerith has a fair amount of contact with Sephiroth's will within the Lifestream giving her a viable method for learning how to cut him off. With Aerith manifesting herself in Cloud's mind - it's apparently that she understands how to connunicate with living cells / or a living being from death (unless it's all in his head). This also gives the simple idea that she would be able to learn how to un-do this connection, and combine it with her healing magic.

Despite 2000 years, the knowledge obtained by the Cetra is limited in how much it was preserved. Aerith only knew a little bit about her past & the power of Holy, so what they know may not be enough to help, and this is the only way I can even concieve that she may be able to determine a way to destroy the Jenova Cells completely. With over 2000 years, it's apparent that the Planet is still incapable of destroying the Jenova cells. The similiar current within human bodies would be destroying them rather than causing Geostigma if the Planet was capable of destroying them.

Your point about DoC is very well made. I really wish that there was a bit more detail in regards to DoC's tie-ins with AC as far as Jenova is concerned. Any note of civilian casualties within Edge would be a really great way of determining what happened to the Jenova Cells within those healed by Aerith. Do we have any proof showing that there were / were not casualties in Edge during DoC?

A few things are certain:
• The destruction / prevention of Sephiroth's will contacting the cells would cure Geostigma just as much as the destruction of the Jenova cells within the host would - at least in regards to the illness itself. Proof: No more Geostigma by DoC, even in those not healed by Aerith.
• We know that people with Jenova Cells were being killed off during DoC by Deepground soldiers, so some Jenova Cells remain on Gaia. There are also likely some people that weren't killed by Deepground's raids (distant cities, etc) and they still would have active Jenova Cells.

This leads back to the original topic:
• With the Planet still seemingly incapable of destroying the Cells on it's own (reasoning stated with the Negative Lifestream not being purged / the cause of Geostigma), could those remaining Jenova Cells be dealt with, since they've neither been cured/purged by Aerith's water and they're still fully functional, or will they eventually be able to gather back together again?


X

 

[Arianna]

• We know that people with Jenova Cells were being killed off during DoC by Deepground soldiers, so some Jenova Cells remain on Gaia. There are also likely some people that weren't killed by Deepground's raids (distant cities, etc) and they still would have active Jenova Cells.

The only thing with this is that Vincent also appeared 'red' in the Deep Ground vizors. He, as far as we know, has no Jenova cells within him.

 

[Dark and Divine]

The only thing with this is that Vincent also appeared 'red' in the Deep Ground vizors. He, as far as we know, has no Jenova cells within him.

But he has Chaos inside of him, who is made of Stagnant Lifestream.

Thus, Vincent appeared red in the sensors because of the impure Lifestream from wich Chaos is born.

 

[Arianna]

But he has Chaos inside of him, who is made of Stagnant Lifestream.

Thus, Vincent appeared red in the sensors because of the impure Lifestream from wich Chaos is born.

Yes, but that shows that it's not Jenova cells that the vizors are picking up. Unless it's any sort of impurity separate from the lifestream...?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shalua states that the 500 people that were still living in Edge are gone. Vanished. Not executed, but gone.

The people who were not pure (i.e. contained Jenova cells) were killed. The people who were clean were kidnapped.

Vincent: What happened here?

Shalua: That's what I'd like to know.

Shalua: I'm here on other business, but something's not right. It's too quiet.

Shalua: I've seen no trace of Deepground, or the squads that were sent in to
fight them. Also, where are the 500 people who are supposed to still
be living here?

I think that's even more indication that the people of Edge were cleansed of Jenova thanks to Aerith's rain. Which wasn't the case with Kalm, where people were contaminated. Furthermore, there were no reported incidents of people being killed in Edge at all in the game. Unlike Kalm and Junon in DC Lost Episode.

Incidentally, Forcestealer, you rock for bringing up that point.

@Arianna

Their scouters were also specifically calibrated to find the Protomateria. If you read the visor, it says in big red letters, "Protomateria Detected." And then runs down all the stats belonging to Vincent Valentine.

 

[Arianna]

Shalua states that the 500 people that were still living in Edge are gone. Vanished. Not executed, but gone.

She (nor anyone else, I am guessing, for that matter) was not aware of Deep Ground's trap laid for the WRO forces. These guys are stealthy.

The only thing I can think of is that Nero sent them to the void, where they were killed and their bodies remain.

... As shown by the two WRO soldiers who had that exact same fate.

I think that's even more indication that the people of Edge were cleansed of Jenova thanks to Aerith's rain. Which wasn't the case with Kalm, where people were contaminated. Furthermore, there were no reported incidents of people being killed in Edge at all in the game. Unlike Kalm and Junon in DC Lost Episode.

I have a problem with that... I am not sure how to put this in words, but I'll try. Basically, I think Geostigma was cured, but Jenova was not at all purged from the system, so to speak.

How? Why? Because she is foreign. Now, I can't say for sure, but if the planet acts as a lone organism - Jenova's genetic material most likely would still be rejected.

As in the case with transplants, the body is particular about accepting cells that are not its own. This is what causes 'rejection' in transplant cases in real life. The organ replaced is being seen as a threat; the body does not register it as it's own, because it's not its own.

Unless those people who showed up 'red' in the Deep Ground soldiers' vizors were also of stagnant Lifestream (in which, would give some credance to the thought that there is a part of the Lifestream that is negative by nature (yin/yang) - perhaps further proven by Chaos' existance as an autonomous being, sentient in his own right), there is no way to prove that the 'tainted' people were free of Jenova cells.

So - I don't think we can rule out Jenova at all, until SE clearly states, 'hey, it's gone!'

Their scouters were also specifically calibrated to find the Protomateria. If you read the visor, it says in big red letters, "Protomateria Detected." And then runs down all the stats belonging to Vincent Valentine.

Hmmmm... I'll have to see if I can see where it says 'protomateria detected.' No, I did not see that. From what I remember, it states that the keeper has been detected. I'll have to watch this part again.

 

[ForceStealer]

Incidentally, Forcestealer, you rock for bringing up that point.

Unless those people who showed up 'red' in the Deep Ground soldiers' vizors were also of stagnant Lifestream (in which, would give some credance to the thought that there is a part of the Lifestream that is negative by nature (yin/yang)

No one would have stagnant Lifestream in them unless it were put there. Stagnant Lifestream, as the name implies, doesn't flow and is separate from the stream, so it would never go into a new life.

The only thing I can think of is that Nero sent them to the void, where they were killed and their bodies remain.

... As shown by the two WRO soldiers who had that exact same fate.

Yes, this is the only possibility that would allow for Edge citizens to still have Jenova cells. But I don't know why they would suddenly go for such a subtle method after razing all the other towns in the world unless they were afraid of Cloud and Tifa, which I kinda doubt, they weren't afraid of Vincent, after all.

I do remember saying though, when Reeve said "The people of Edge are on edge," I said, "Cloud and Tifa live there, what could the citizens ever be afraid of?"

 

[Makoeyes987]

She (nor anyone else, I am guessing, for that matter) was not aware of Deep Ground's trap laid for the WRO forces. These guys are stealthy.

She was aware of them being there though. So she's not going in there blind. That's not even relevant.

The only thing I can think of is that Nero sent them to the void, where they were killed and their bodies remain.

... As shown by the two WRO soldiers who had that exact same fate.

Except, Nero isn't the only one there killing people. Look at the first cutscene of chapter 3, and you'll see the bodies of countless WRO soldiers around Rosso the Crimson, as she muses on Weiss's speech. So no. Nero didn't just suck up every single person in Edge. There would be bodies of people if they were killed. Nero wasn't a one man army and execution force.

Also, if you talk to one of the dying WRO soldiers in Edge, he'll say..

WRO Member: Ambushed... by... soldier... in red...
WRO Member: Squad... wiped out...
WRO Member: Warehouse... on the... edge of town...
WRO Member: They... were gathering... civilians...

Yeah. They were gathering the Edge citizens. Not executing them.

I have a problem with that... I am not sure how to put this in words, but I'll try. Basically, I think Geostigma was cured, but Jenova was not at all purged from the system, so to speak.

How? Why? Because she is foreign. Now, I can't say for sure, but if the planet acts as a lone organism - Jenova's genetic material most likely would still be rejected.

As in the case with transplants, the body is particular about accepting cells that are not its own. This is what causes 'rejection' in transplant cases in real life. The organ replaced is being seen as a threat; the body does not register it as it's own, because it's not its own.

Yeah, you just proved your entire point wrong yourself. If the planet is an organism, and the Jenova cells are the foreign object, then Aerith's water acting as antibodies to eradicate and destroy the Jenova Cells makes perfect sense, seeing as how her water is acting as the planet's immune system.

So - I don't think we can rule out Jenova at all, until SE clearly states, 'hey, it's gone!'

Yeah, because the creators are in the business of stating the blatantly obvious in the narrative. I guess we need SE to say every plot point for us to understand. The creators must overestimate our intelligence then.

From what I remember, it states that the keeper has been detected. I'll have to watch this part again.

Yeah, same difference.

But I don't know why they would suddenly go for such a subtle method after razing all the other towns in the world unless they were afraid of Cloud and Tifa, which I kinda doubt, they weren't afraid of Vincent, after all.

Also, this.

 

[Arianna]

Well, it comes down to the original subject of this thread: is the planet able to fully rid itself of Jenova. If she is like a disease upon creation, there is a good possibility the answer is no. But this is my opinion.

Shalua states that the 500 people that were still living in Edge are gone. Vanished. Not executed, but gone.

The people who were not pure (i.e. contained Jenova cells) were killed. The people who were clean were kidnapped.

I think that's even more indication that the people of Edge were cleansed of Jenova thanks to Aerith's rain. Which wasn't the case with Kalm, where people were contaminated. Furthermore, there were no reported incidents of people being killed in Edge at all in the game. Unlike Kalm and Junon in DC Lost Episode.

But then, Geostigma would still exist in the world.

I just can't recall if it's been said that Geostigma was cured or not...

It's been 1 year since the events of Advent Children, and there is a pool of said holy water in the old church in the ruins of Midgar. There is a way to cure Geostigma; I can't see AVALANCHE not spreading this around, via Cid's airship.

I just don't see a way that Geostigma can survive; and, in that, I think that would be proof that Jenova still remains in the world. Great Gospel does not get rid of Jenova, but does get rid of it's effects.

True, Edge is an enigma.

It is not explained what happened to the general citizenry. Guesses could include hiding (where did the boy go when you helped him help Vincent get the card key?), in which I wouldn't doubt.

I think this is one hole in the story that SE just didn't tie up. Probably your guess is as good as mine, due to the fact that we aren't told exactly, but are shown some activity and who was conducting said activity.

She was aware of them being there though. So she's not going in there blind. That's not even relevant.

How do you know this? I do not recall it said anywhere that Shalua was sure what she was going to come up against in Edge.

Except, Nero isn't the only one there killing people. Look at the first cutscene of chapter 3, and you'll see the bodies of countless WRO soldiers around Rosso the Crimson, as she muses on Weiss's speech. So no. Nero didn't just suck up every single person in Edge. There would be bodies of people if they were killed. Nero wasn't a one man army and execution force.

Also, if you talk to one of the dying WRO soldiers in Edge, he'll say..

...

Yeah. They were gathering the Edge citizens. Not executing them.

I think they would execute those who were 'unfit', definitely.

Just because Shalua didn't know what happened to those people; just because Reeve says that the people of Edge are on edge... That doesn't mean that Edge's citizens and whatever WRO members there weren't taken and dealt with swiftly, on a scale that WRO had no ability to keep up with.

Rosso had great speed in which she could cut down the three WRO members who got into the warehouse. Nero had the ability to make people disappear without a trace in any way. And as for 'bodies everywhere' - well, Nero could have sucked them all up.

I didn't say he did, but it's a possibility.

I think it comes down to WRO being totally unaware of the abilities of the Deep Ground and their elites.

And as for the Edge citizenry - the words by Shalua were 'what happened to the 500 people still living in Edge'. The boy's presence proves that someone was successful at eluding Deep Ground.

I don't believe that statement proves that all the people in Edge are free of Jenova.

Yeah, you just proved your entire point wrong yourself. If the planet is an organism, and the Jenova cells are the foreign object, then Aerith's water acting as antibodies to eradicate and destroy the Jenova Cells makes perfect sense, seeing as how her water is acting as the planet's immune system.

If this was true, then no one would show up 'red' in the Deep Ground vizors. And if no one showed up 'red' in the Vizors, that would mean Jenova's genetic information is gone; but, people did show up 'red', so as you state, Jenova still exists. But Geostigma is gone...?

Once again, there's a pool of this holy-Lifestream infused water in the ruins of Midgar to this day (according to storyline). Again, it's a guess, but I can't see AVALANCHE not using the Shera to transport either the people to the water or the water to the people... A big job, yes, but a possibility.

Yeah, because the creators are in the business of stating the blatantly obvious in the narrative. I guess we need SE to say every plot point for us to understand. The creators must overestimate our intelligence then.

I don't think it's blatantly obvious if this subject even exists!

Yeah, same difference.

No, Mako, not the same at all. Though I cannot recall the whole of the story, I do believe I am correct at remembering that in the beginning, they did not know Vincent held the materia within him. Rosso (somehow) figures this out sometime before her attack on him in Nibelheim. (Thing is, when did that detail get figured out - perhaps when Chaos attacked her in Edge...? I'm guessing.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

But then, Geostigma would still exist in the world.

No, because it is more than just Cells. It is cells + Seph's will.

It's been 1 year since the events of Advent Children, and there is a pool of said holy water in the old church in the ruins of Midgar. There is a way to cure Geostigma; I can't see AVALANCHE not spreading this around, via Cid's airship.

Not everyone can visit Midgar, especially not in a year's time.

I just don't see a way that Geostigma can survive; and, in that, I think that would be proof that Jenova still remains in the world. Great Gospel does not get rid of Jenova, but does get rid of it's effects.

Great Gospel WAS NOT A GLOBAL PHENOMENON. It wasn't even able to his everyone in Edge.

It is not explained what happened to the general citizenry. Guesses could include hiding (where did the boy go when you helped him help Vincent get the card key?), in which I wouldn't doubt.

General citizenry evac'd. Only 500 remained, most all of whom got rounded up.

If this was true, then no one would show up 'red' in the Deep Ground vizors. And if no one showed up 'red' in the Vizors, that would mean Jenova's genetic information is gone; but, people did show up 'red', so as you state, Jenova still exists. But Geostigma is gone...?

Because ingredient #2 is missing.

Once again, there's a pool of this holy-Lifestream infused water in the ruins of Midgar to this day (according to storyline). Again, it's a guess, but I can't see AVALANCHE not using the Shera to transport either the people to the water or the water to the people... A big job, yes, but a possibility.

One that they've only had a year to begin implementing for people who were aware they have Jenova cells within them.