SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

Any theories which church Zack is in at the end?

Any world where the planet isnt dying I guess?
I mean, the flowers in Zack's final battle versus Sephiroth Reborn are wilted but one, just like Terrier.
Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.

 

[Yoru]

Do you think that's why the Zack chapters are skippable after beating the game? Also, I can see that as a work around to the Intergrade Zack scene.

I don't know. I don't think so. I really just see it as a QoL option. You don't do anything in Zack POV to be honest. It's just walking around in very limited maps, and watching cinematics. So I won't read too deep to be honest. It's just to keep the flow when you wan't to replay the game for trophy hunting and all.

 

[imach0c0]

Any world where the planet isnt dying I guess?
I mean, the flowers in Zack's final battle versus Sephiroth Reborn are wilted but one, just like Terrier.
Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.

Maybe the church is special, meaning it always has bloomed flowers. In the Aerith 30th Anniversary monologue, I think it mentions:
"this is strange place, the seasons never change" - perhaps referring to the church?

But then again, there is that scene where there is one bloomed flower amongst dead flowers in the burning church when Zack fights.

So who knows.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Not really an interpretation. To me If the church is truly a special place in common for Aerith, it's with Zack

It's just facts. That's there meeting point in Crisis Core for more than 1 year if I remember well. Cloud has only entered this church once in his life.

Why is she saying this to Cloud ? I don't know. Like I already said, we don't even know what this Aerith is.

Funny take for you all : And what if all this dream date was Cloud memories and not Aerith' ? We saw Zack is always talking about Aerith to Cloud. He may have describe their dates, what she's saying to him. So that's why we see the stamp carrying his teamate and all. That's just Cloud subconscious recreating a date he heard about. And his inner self is screaming :

NOOOOOOOO CLOUD !!! STOP !! Remember Zack !!! It's his girlfriend !!!!

View attachment 16174

That's a pretty interesting analysis that I have not seen before.

One of the thoughts I had was if this world is created by Aerith and these worlds are made of dreams/hopes, it could be representing Aerith's subconscious, meaning where her true heart lies (Zack). Thought she is trying to have this moment with a "real" Cloud that she is trying to find, it does not seem to work out because this "love" she is seeking is still with Zack (she just doesn't realize it due to her being confused about her feelings). On the surface, she is trying to move on from Zack to Cloud but its not working out because deep inside her heart, she still yearns for Zack.

Maybe it's a combination of both? As has been said before in this thread, Zack is kind of a big ghost between Cloud and Aerith.

 

[eleamaya]

Maybe the church always has bloomed flowers. In the Aerith 30th Anniversary monologue, I think it mentions:
"this is strange place, the seasons never change" - perhaps referring to the church?

No, the church where the meteor strike has wilted flowers but one.
Also, I edit my previous post to include that line of monologue.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I think the moment when the photographer said CA doesn't look like couple because the girl looks like gonna cry (JP)/it's like funeral (EN) is also the callback how the shopkeeper in CC thought Zack is Aerith's boyfriend that she wouldnt find a good--kindhearted guy like him, and Bruno says Zack & Aerith look good together,

About the church, this isn't ever mentioned before in this discussion. But Nomura says in Dengeki Maou for CCFF7 interview back then (2007)
"Whenever something comes up in his mind, Zack heads straight to the church, as if he’s looking to be healed."
Aside from the moment Aerith embraced him when he's grieving Angeal's death, Nomura's comment reminds me of all of these scenes throughout Remake & Rebirth:

View attachment 16177

This to me is why I personally cannot look at the church as Cloud and Aerith’s “spot”.

Their scene together there is of course beloved, iconic, and memorable especially as it was remembered in the original and recreated in Remake.

But all told the time they spend there together is less than ten minutes or so.

Meanwhile innumerable scenes between Aerith and Zack take place there, not to mention it being their very first scene there together.

It’s Zack and Aerith’s spot. And I always felt as much as Cloud goes to the spot where Zack died in Advent Children to mourn both Zack and Aerith, so too do I see him going to the church to mourn them both. Symbolised as others here have mentioned by the yellow flowers blooming at the spot where Zack died, and his buster sword being planted in the flower patch in the church.

And as you’ve highlighted, in no matter what universe or world or timeline or Lifestream dream pocket he is in, Zack somehow always finds himself at Aerith’s church.

As much as there is a desired narrative right now for some to see Cloud search the multiverse to find and reunite with Aerith, that isn’t the story that is being set up for him. The many goodbyes he has with Aerith in Rebirth’s ending sets up what is his original path in Part 3, that of stopping Sephiroth. There isn’t any promise made between them to find each other, and why would they? Irrespective of whether Aerith is alive in another world or not, she’s still very much able to be present with Cloud if she so chooses, or if Cloud so chooses to wish to see her there.

Their final goodbye together doesn’t set up any potential reunion for them. It’s more a “I’ll do my part, you do yours, and if you run into trouble send up smoke and me and the cavalry will come by”

Meanwhile pretty much the entirety of what they’ve done with Zack in Rebirth is the very “searching the multiverse for Aerith” narrative that some CAs are thinking Part 3 will be about for Cloud and Aerith.

Again I get the sense they know that is what Zack’s story is and would rather see it be for Cloud and Aerith, so too the Lifestream scene being Cloud and Aerith, and Under the Highwind.

There is a tacit understanding of where things are going for some I think, but they’d rather all of the above moments be funnelled down into Cloud and Aerith. And while they can recognise the writing on the wall to an extent, I don’t think there is anything wrong inherently in wanting those scenes to be for Cloud and Aerith. But there comes a point where if you want to be arguing reasonably you have to accept that the way things have been set up doesn’t suggest in any strong way, that we will be seeing these things for Cloud and Aerith.

To come back to the church, it’s Zack’s nexus point. Much like how I think for Cloud… it’s Nibelheim, and the water tower, like how it is for Tifa. Part 3 will affirm this or it won’t in the Lifestream, but I think it will if it follows the original.

But for Zack, it’s Aerith’s church. It’s their spot. One they spent years spending time in, getting to know each other, falling in love. It’s where Zack keeps coming back to now, no matter the time, place, or dimension, he keeps being drawn back to their place, and I can’t interpret that in any other way as to it being one long drawn out tease for Part 3, when somehow Zack finds himself back there again but this time Aerith will also be there, thus facilitating their reunion.

 

[cgnVirtue]

Seeing a lot of discourse with how the dream date is interpreted. What do people mean its "zack coded?" Is that even a thing or just head canon stuff?

I don't think Aerith was using Cloud as a stand in for Zack, however the amount of Zack references in the subtext is hard to ignore. If it was a deliberate choice to bring in Zack references in the dream date, what is the purpose narratively?

What people mean when they say it’s “Zack coded” is that the date itself is stuff that emulates/replicates the kinds of activities Zack and Aerith did together. Like, I haven’t played Crisis Core but I’m pretty sure they’ve done those exact things together.

As for the narrative purpose of doing this, I think that the last mutually romantic activities that Aerith did were the Zack, and so in trying to recreate them she might have been confirming Cloud’s feelings. Even if she’s not deliberately using Cloud as a stand in, I do think that she’s trying to recreate the same magic she felt with Zack, which only services when she says “at least I know where we stand now” at the end of it. Even if she does have any romantic feelings for Cloud at this point, Zack is the elephant in the room and they can’t ignore it anymore, especially since they’re both aware that Cloud was friends with Zack at the time of the Nibelheim incident.

 

[imach0c0]

No, the church where the meteor strike has wilted flowers but one.
Also, I edit my previous post to include that line of monologue.

In the Aerith monologue, the lines: "Ugh, that's it, I can't stand thinking about you" (paraphrasing)

Is Aerith directing those lines to Cloud or Zack?

 

[imach0c0]

Maybe it's a combination of both? As has been said before in this thread, Zack is kind of a big ghost between Cloud and Aerith.

Could you clarify what you mean by both?

 

[A-to-Z]

I said it jokingly but I'm half serious. We all focused on Aerith while everything was happening in Cloud's head. She says that it's her dream but why couldn't Cloud's subconscious also act on what's happening ?

Maybe he's the one who thinks of Zack and makes him appear via the stamps. Cloud remembers part of Zack during the game. He remembers that he is in love with Aerith. Maybe his subconscious is really trying to remind him of something. Maybe that's why the photographer tells him they don't look like a real couple. Maybe it's Cloud who refuses to make it romantic. Because he feels uncomfortable with the situation.

During all Rebirth the fact that Aerith still has feelings for Zack he's in the back of his mind. Some say he's jealous. Other say he's just sorry for her and doesn't know how to confess to her that Zack is dead. And that's why Aerith's statements are so contradictory with this Zack imagery. Why confess to a guy when you're thinking about another ? It may explain it.

Not 100% confident in this, but honestly it could work.

My theory is that the world of the dream date is built from Aerith’s memories OR it’s the world that centers around the consciousness of the shopowners who’ve accepted their fate; they can’t change it because they’re NPCs unlike our MCs and charas like Zack (in the dream date world, it’s also worth noting that Marlene and Elmyra are not present and this is pointed out in the Ultimania as well; so Aerith’s memories may not be the foundation of it).

I think it’s possible that Aerith’s Cetra abilities allows her to have access and pull from other people’s memories. This explains why the flower brooch manifested, (cmiiw, Aerith never saw it before right?) because it’s something Cloud explicitly associates with romance and considers a gift to a lover.

My theory is that in Remake part 1, before the fight in the highway, when Aerith saw a vision of Zack right before his last stand, it was actually her seeing from Cloud’s memories. Also in her NPTK performance, where it seems that she’s manipulating lifestream, I think she was deriving from Cloud’s memories as well, that’s how she was able to manifest the avalanche trio. (Though I think this ability might be exclusive to OmniAerith as it could introduce plot inconsistencies if our Aerith was also able to do it)

 

[Yoru]

Maybe it's a combination of both? As has been said before in this thread, Zack is kind of a big ghost between Cloud and Aerith.

Could be yes.

It would explain why this scene is kind of in all directions. Aerith trying to confess but comparing it with a love she already felt in her life. Cloud trying to play along but his subconscious feeling really bad for Zack.

From a story telling point of view, it might help get across the idea that this couple can't exist. Aerith is in love, but can't totally let go of Zack. Cloud could also fall in love, but his subconscious prevents him from deepening those feelings and going further (whether towards Tifa or Zack. Both reasons work).

It could be a way of saying to Clerith, "Look, it could have worked, but there's too much liability for these two souls."

Aerith is rejected, but it's not violent. It's not that Cloud doesn't like her, it's that he's never given himself the time or opportunity to do so.

 

[imach0c0]

My theory is that the world of the dream date is built from Aerith’s memories OR it’s the world that centers around the consciousness of the shopowners who’ve accepted their fate; they can’t change it because they’re NPCs unlike our MCs and charas like Zack (in the dream date world, it’s also worth noting that Marlene and Elmyra are not present and this is pointed out in the Ultimania as well; so Aerith’s memories may not be the foundation of it).

I think it’s possible that Aerith’s Cetra abilities allows her to have access and pull from other people’s memories. This explains why the flower brooch manifested, (cmiiw, Aerith never saw it before right?) because it’s something Cloud explicitly associates with romance and considers a gift to a lover.

My theory is that in Remake part 1, before the fight in the highway, when Aerith saw a vision of Zack right before his last stand, it was actually her seeing from Cloud’s memories. Also in her NPTK performance, where it seems that she’s manipulating lifestream, I think she was deriving from Cloud’s memories as well, that’s how she was able to manifest the avalanche trio. (Though I think this ability might be exclusive to OmniAerith as it could introduce plot inconsistencies if our Aerith was also able to do it)

Its interesting how all of those stall exist in Zack's world, just a different stamp. Not sure if the photographer exists in Zack's world. (can anyone confirm?)

 

[Sacky]

My theory is that the world of the dream date is built from Aerith’s memories OR it’s the world that centers around the consciousness of the shopowners who’ve accepted their fate; they can’t change it because they’re NPCs unlike our MCs and charas like Zack (in the dream date world, it’s also worth noting that Marlene and Elmyra are not present and this is pointed out in the Ultimania as well; so Aerith’s memories may not be the foundation of it).

I think it’s possible that Aerith’s Cetra abilities allows her to have access and pull from other people’s memories. This explains why the flower brooch manifested, (cmiiw, Aerith never saw it before right?) because it’s something Cloud explicitly associates with romance and considers a gift to a lover.

My theory is that in Remake part 1, before the fight in the highway, when Aerith saw a vision of Zack right before his last stand, it was actually her seeing from Cloud’s memories. Also in her NPTK performance, where it seems that she’s manipulating lifestream, I think she was deriving from Cloud’s memories as well, that’s how she was able to manifest the avalanche trio. (Though I think this ability might be exclusive to OmniAerith as it could introduce plot inconsistencies if our Aerith was also able to do it)

The one thing i cant explain is that NPTK VR technology having the lifestream magic XD. Isn't it all in VR so is the lifestream magic also VR or did that come from Aerith's own powers. But then why would they see it in VR XD

 

[LNK]

I have a feeling hardcore CA's heads are going to explode in the third game. These last two games have pushed so hard for ZA and CT

 

[A-to-Z]

Any world where the planet isnt dying I guess?
I mean, the flowers in Zack's final battle versus Sephiroth Reborn are wilted but one, just like Terrier.
Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.

Right before she pushes him in the portal, the flowers in the church in that world disappear to reveal (what seems to be) barren earth.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

The dream date is also “Zack coded” in the way that, one can easily interpret, this world’s version of Stamp being very referential to Zack himself.

I’ll start with this picture you can see in the background of where Cloud and Aerith pose for the photographer.

Spoiler

I mean if it was just the dog itself I wouldn’t read anything into it, and if I was to say “this version of Stamp looks like Zack” then I can I understand why it might be readily dismissed. But look at his bandana. It’s got an image of the sky, an oft used symbol for Zack himself. Then you have the wounded puppy slung over his back with a bandage on his arm, the very same place and on the same arm that Cloud also has a bandage (albeit tucking out from his armour piece on said arm). So you have two subtle clues on the two different dogs themselves to suggest Zack and Cloud, but then just the image itself and what it’s showing also does this. It’s one puppy literally helping another and in a scenario where one is seriously injured, and unconscious.

It’s Zack helping a comatose, mako poisoned Cloud, like how he did on the long journey from Nibelheim to Midgar, and how Zack helps Cloud further still all throughout Rebirth.

The caption below the image hammers it home, I think. Everyone’s mileage may vary as to how subtle it is or not, or even whether you don’t see this imagery at all, and think it’s just two dogs, this sort of stuff I think is open to interpretation, but personally? It couldn’t be more Zack coded if it had literally said “THIS IS ZACK” in bright pink glittery neon.

As to how the rest of the date is Zack coded, well at the gift stall there is a plushie of this Zack coded Stamp, sky bandanna and all.

And at the candy stand, one of the options of which snack to pick is a packet of Stamp’s Champs a crisp/chip type snack with this version of Stamp on the packet. The sky bandana wearing, Zack looking Stamp.

So when people say the entire dream date is Zack coded (aside from the many cuts away to Zack himself, the fact the entire date takes place within Zack’s interlude) it’s because… it’s Zack coded.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Could you clarify what you mean by both?

Basically what Yoru said:

Could be yes.

It would explain why this scene is kind of in all directions. Aerith trying to confess but comparing it with a love she already felt in her life. Cloud trying to play along but his subconscious feeling really bad for Zack.

From a story telling point of view, it might help get across the idea that this couple can't exist. Aerith is in love, but can't totally let go of Zack. Cloud could also fall in love, but his subconscious prevents him from deepening those feelings and going further (whether towards Tifa or Zack. Both reasons work).

It could be a way of saying to Clerith, "Look, it could have worked, but there's too much liability for these two souls."

Aerith is rejected, but it's not violent. It's not that Cloud doesn't like her, it's that he's never given himself the time or opportunity to do so.

Aerith is trying to move on but is still longing for Zack and Cloud keeps hitting the wall of "my best friend Zack, who died, was head over heels for this girl" basically.

 

[Rin]

Seeing a lot of discourse with how the dream date is interpreted. What do people mean its "zack coded?" Is that even a thing or just head canon stuff?

I don't think Aerith was using Cloud as a stand in for Zack, however the amount of Zack references in the subtext is hard to ignore. If it was a deliberate choice to bring in Zack references in the dream date, what is the purpose narratively?

Personally, what I mean when I say "Zack coded" is the references to Stamp.

Zack coding = Stamp
Cloud coding = Chocobos.

The first stall you go to has a Stamp plushie and the second stall you go to has Stamp chips & Chocobo chocolate. When you're at the second stall, if you choose the Chocobo candy, Aerith will immediately choose the Stamp chips. If you choose Stamp chips, Aerith will choose the third option which are Cosmos themed but she never chooses the Cloud coded option even though she's on a date with Cloud.

EDIT:

Its interesting how all of those stall exist in Zack's world, just a different stamp. Not sure if the photographer exists in Zack's world. (can anyone confirm?)

The photographer is there in Zack's world too, but he's taking photos of families not couples.

 

[imach0c0]

Personally, what I mean when I say "Zack coded" is the references to Stamp.

Zack coding = Stamp
Cloud coding = Chocobos.

The first stall you go to has a Stamp plushie and the second stall you go to has Stamp chips & Chocobo chocolate. When you're at the second stall, if you choose the Chocobo candy, Aerith will immediately choose the Stamp chips. If you choose Stamp chips, Aerith will choose the third option which are Cosmos themed but she never chooses the Cloud coded option even though she's on a date with Cloud.

EDIT:



The photographer is there in Zack's world too, but he's taking photos of families not couples.

What does she choose if you take Cosmo Candy? I assume its Chocobo Chocolate cause that's the only option left (amongst the ones she has already chosen regarding the other choices).

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I w

What people mean when they say it’s “Zack coded” is that the date itself is stuff that emulates/replicates the kinds of activities Zack and Aerith did together. Like, I haven’t played Crisis Core but I’m pretty sure they’ve done those exact things together.

As for the narrative purpose of doing this, I think that the last mutually romantic activities that Aerith did were the Zack, and so in trying to recreate them she might have been confirming Cloud’s feelings. Even if she’s not deliberately using Cloud as a stand in, I do think that she’s trying to recreate the same magic she felt with Zack, which only services when she says “at least I know where we stand now” at the end of it. Even if she does have any romantic feelings for Cloud at this point, Zack is the elephant in the room and they can’t ignore it anymore, especially since they’re both aware that Cloud was friends with Zack at the time of the Nibelheim incident.

I will point out here that I don't think it's the activities they did together in CC. In CC there is no candy eating or photography that I can recall besides some shopping. Edit: Yep the date is actually very different. Source below:

He does buy her a ribbon but she picks it out so there are deviations there too. She decides this time to have Cloud pick because she wants to go against that.

However It's definitely a place she makes memories with Zack in. The sector she spends time in with Cloud also because that's where she spent her time because of Shinra's surveillance contains many memories of Zack.

Cloud says that was easy because they're in this sector and the church is where they officially met again and it's the only place here they actively conversed.
But well, this is where Zack would visit her after his missions so his shadow would still be there. As she would have lots of memories with Zack there.

 

[eleamaya]

In the Aerith monologue, the lines: "Ugh, that's it, I can't stand thinking about you" (paraphrasing)

Is Aerith directing those lines to Cloud or Zack?

I think it's Cloud.....
because he bothers her mind since she saw Zack in him.

"Look, it could have worked, but there's too much liability for these two souls."

Love this sentence

I’ll start with this picture you can see in the background of where Cloud and Aerith pose for the photographer.

He's watching

The first stall you go to has a Stamp plushie and the second stall you go to has Stamp chips & Chocobo chocolate. When you're at the second stall, if you choose the Chocobo candy, Aerith will immediately choose the Stamp chips. If you choose Stamp chips, Aerith will choose the third option which are Cosmos themed but she never chooses the Cloud coded option even though she's on a date with Cloud.


The photographer is there in Zack's world too, but he's taking photos of families not couples.

Thanks for the detail. I dont play Rebirth so I'm desperate to watch if anyone save the walkthrough of Zack strolling Sector 5 Slum Market when looking for Biggs so I can compare it myself. Someone who played also has spotted Stamp plushie don't exist in Zack's world. I also dont pay attention of Cloud's choice in the stall.

In CC there is no candy eating or photography that I can recall besides some shopping.

You're right, but maybe this is how we look:
First stall = Aerith getting the gift she treasure
Second stall = ZA in perfume stall. The bitter candy can be a reminder of the bad smell of perfume game.
Photographer = ZA is approved in the slum that they look good as couple

But well, this is where Zack would visit her after his missions so his shadow would still be there. As she would have lots of memories with Zack there.

The place, based on her FF 30th Anniversary Stage's Monologue, where she said she's stuck (with her feelings for Zack that is never change))

 

[Rin]

What does she choose if you take Cosmo Candy? I assume it's Chocobo Chocolate cause that's the only option left (amongst the ones she has already chosen regarding the other choices).

Not sure. I've never taken the Cosmo Candy, I'm currently finishing my hard mode playthrough. I can go back and see after I've finished, if no one else knows.

 

[imach0c0]

I think it's Cloud.....
because he bothers her mind since she saw Zack in him.

Is it possible that it could be about Zack? Although she is trying to find the real Cloud, it causes a conflict within her because she still has lingering feelings for Zack and is struggling to get over that.

 

[Rin]

I w

I will point out here that I don't think it's the activities they did together in CC. In CC there is no candy eating or photography that I can recall besides some shopping. Edit: Yep the date is actually very different. Source below:

He does buy her a ribbon but she picks it out so there are deviations there too. She decides this time to have Cloud pick because she wants to go against that.

However It's definitely a place she makes memories with Zack in. The sector she spends time in with Cloud also because that's where she spent her time because of Shinra's surveillance contains many memories of Zack.

Cloud says that was easy because they're in this sector and the church is where they officially met again and it's the only place here they actively conversed.
But well, this is where Zack would visit her after his missions so his shadow would still be there. As she would have lots of memories with Zack there.

Yeah I'm actually in the camp who believes she's not necessarily trying to replicate this date with Zack but rather that she wants to have something similar with Cloud and she's only got so much experience so she's recreated what she knows.

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah I'm actually in the camp who believes she's not necessarily trying to replicate this date with Zack but rather that she wants to have something similar with Cloud and she's only got so much experience so she's recreated what she knows.

So, does she figure out her feelings and where her and Cloud stand after experiencing this date with him? Or was she aware prior to the date?