SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

You're right. I changed up what I said with my other post. If LS kept as is, it would be out of place to add those memories. I think there's a possibility the LS won't be kept as is though

Yes. Pretty sure it will change because they already used some of it for Chapter 9 in Rebirth. So yeah they will have to add new things in it.

From my POV it can't be Zack and Aerith because their death is supposed to be a shock to Cloud. And the LS scene is more like a resolution ARC. So I think the best place for a Zack and Aerith scene is when Sephiroth reveals the truth at the Northern crater. Like we saw in Remake, Hojo knows exactly who Cloud is. So he can still be here too to confess it's true Cloud is an experiment.

With Tifa doubting and Aerith and Zack real death revealed, that's when and where Cloud is gonna lose it for real this time. That's when he gives the black materia to the real Sephiroth and the world is doomed.

 

[Eerie]

If there will be a rewrite, that gives even more reason to have the LS play out a little differently. Eventually Cloud's going to learn the truth about Zack and Aerith, whether it's during the LS or some other time, I'm open to it.

But the LS scene is the scene where Tifa shines as the heroine of the intimate plot and that's, at its core, because Cloud loves her. While I do believe that they're going to have to modify it, the essence of it won't, ie it is the scene where you realise that Cloud and Tifa love each other. It's really important that this realisation comes as we discover true Cloud, as to not muddle the message of Tifa's importance to him. Even more now that we saw Tifa's memories in the Lifestream with the same core than Cloud's memories in the OG. This screams soulmates.

 

[SilverSisu]

So, does she figure out her feelings and where her and Cloud stand after experiencing this date with him? Or was she aware prior to the date?

The way i interpreted Aerith's words would be something like this:
"I really like you Cloud but perhaps not in a romantic way. Maybe more like as a dear friend"

I think this date was to show that Cloud and Aerith were not compatible as a romantic couple. Cloud wasn't allowed to buy the gift he wanted to Aerith, Zack's presence was constantly looming around every corner no matter what they were trying to do (gift merchant was talking like Zack and his gift pleased Aerith), them choosing different candies showed that their tastes are different (i.e not compatible) and candy seller's words about how she wished that they have had more time is referencing Aerith's #1 wish that she wanted to spend more time with Zack.

Also the photographer refusing to give them the photo and saying that they don't look like they were on a date but on funeral instead is pretty self explanatory.

And then there was Cloud calling Aerith weird and hurting her feelings. Cloud's reaction to Aerith's antics is polar opposite when compared to Zack.

"Normal is overrated."

Zack was always encouraging Aerith to be herself and not trying to be something she wasn't. This "weirdness" is also what makes Aerith attractive in Zack's eyes. When Cissnei told Zack that Aerith is a cetra and the last one alive he said to himself that "well she is one of a kind"

Zack's influence helped Aerith who had been ostracized her entire life because she was "weird" to accept herself and she found her playful nature and embraced it.

I think this "world" was an illusion that Aerith created because she wanted to be sure what she feels towards Cloud. These people sure act like programmed NPCs and not like real people.

 

[nars305]

Of course it’s not going to be shot for shot the same but I have faith in SE. UTH is an extension of the feelings realized during the LS sequence so there is room for it to be restructured if they include new things.

I’m willing to look like an idiot who spoke too soon and say the LS will be exclusively Cloud and Tifa. If its changed so drastically that it loses its message then I’d say that’s bad on SE and I’m not an idiot.

 

[LNK]

But the LS scene is the scene where Tifa shines as the heroine of the intimate plot and that's, at its core, because Cloud loves her

Oh I agree! I don't think showing Cloud the truth of Aerith's death will take away from that though.

With Tifa doubting and Aerith and Zack real death revealed, that's when and where Cloud is gonna lose it for real this time. That's when he gives the black materia to the real Sephiroth and the world is doomed.

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

 

[LNK]

I’m willing to look like an idiot who spoke too soon and say the LS will be exclusively Cloud and Tifa. If its changed so drastically that it loses its message then I’d say that’s bad on SE and I’m not an idiot.

To be honest, I lean more towards them ending up keeping it exclusively C and T, but I'm open to them expanding on that, by adding the shared memory of Aerith's real death. It wouldn't change a whole lot imo. Especially if it's not revealed at the NC

 

[nars305]

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

 

[LNK]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

We don't know why Cloud is suppressing the Aerith's death though. It could be a trauma response, or it could be Sephiroth/Jenova's influence.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

Cloud did remember Zack, but he's still got his death mixed up. I can see them handling Aerith's the same way, but eventually, Cloud'll have to learn the truth. How both of those will be handled is to be seen. As long as it is done really well, I'm open to whatever they choose to do. As someone who loves how her death was shown in Rebirth, I can't wait to see how the reveal of the truth will be done in the third game.

 

[Yoru]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m just trying to figure out what relevance that has to Cloud’s identity. Obviously it is something that Cloud is suppressing, but that’s more a trauma response.

If I’m being honest, I understand the message that Nomura was trying to convey, I just really don’t know how it all plays out with Cloud being delusional about Aerith’s death. I’m thinking of how the party will deal with it, just no one mentioning Aerith’s death?

Even if they did, I assume he’ll have the same reaction as when he heard Zack’s name. Cloud also was able to remember Zack when he finally returned to Nibelheim. So maybe remembering Aerith will be similar to how he remembers Zack.

Pretty much the same. They can't keep the whole "Cloud doesn't know about Aerith" very long because... it just happened from their PoV. How can nobody in the team never mention it ever again ? So this reveal has to be pretty early in Part 3.

So that's why I think the best place to reveal it is the North crater.

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

Thing is Cloud was the only one present during Aerith death. So how can the truth be revealed in the LS when nobody can confirm or deny it ? That's why as it is, it makes no sense to add Aerith scene here.

 

[imach0c0]

Isn't part of Cloud's journey of finding himself also accepting the death of Zack and Aerith since he seems to be currently denying it or suppressing it in his head.

 

[Yoru]

Isn't part of Cloud's journey of finding himself also accepting the death of Zack and Aerith since he seems to be currently denying it or suppressing it in his head.

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

It's more in Advent Children that we see his guilt taking over his mind.

So I would say no ? It's more about a journey of self discovery and acceptance.

 

[Sacky]

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

It's more in Advent Children that we see his guilt taking over his mind.

So I would say no ? It's more about a journey of self discovery and acceptance.

I still see Aeriths real death being shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

 

[Yoru]

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

Yup, I think it's the more accurate way to do it. Remembering and accepting their death when Cloud is fixed.

 

[nars305]

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

I agree. It also allows for the party to also grieve Aerith and not just be a moment for Cloud and Tifa. They aren’t the only ones affected by her death.

 

[Yoru]

And of course I'd like to clarify if any new Cleriths are reading this: We're not gatekeeping the Lifestream sequence from Aerith. We're just saying that this sequence as told in OG can't involve moments that don't concern Cloud and Tifa directly.

Can they change it? Yes, they can. But that would mean ENTIRELY rewriting the meaning of this sequence and changing a LOT of things in FF7's lore. Will they do it? Maybe, maybe not.

My personal opinion is that they won't. I think chapter 9 in Rebirth is a proof they are comitting fully to the OG vision. Maybe I'm wrong. Only time will tell us.

 

[imach0c0]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

 

[Yoru]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

Difficult to say. The fact Cloud and the party left her behind at the end of Rebirth is already an in-game excuse for not seeing her at the start of the 3rd game. I think it's necessary to see her active before the end of the game, as Zack's question needs to be resolved. And she's the only one who can do it. But I think she'll be less present than people may think.

 

[LNK]

Thing is Cloud was the only one present during Aerith death. So how can the truth be revealed in the LS when nobody can confirm or deny it ? That's why as it is, it makes no sense to add Aerith scene here.

Yes, he was the only one present for Aerith being stabbed, but Tifa/Barret etc were there immediately after. Let's say Sephiroth tells Cloud he's the one that actually killed Aerith. How else would Cloud learn the real truth when nobody else witnessed it?

Well, in OG it's only Zack's death he's supressing. He witnessed and "accepted" Aerith death right away.

But, this doesn't seem to be the case for the Re trilogy. He's not suppressing Zack's death, he seems to be suppressing exactly how died, and Aerith's death. It'll definitely be interesting to see how SE goes about Cloud learning the truth of those things.

I still see Aeriths real death bring shown once Cloud is fixed same with Zacks when we revisit the areas like forgotten capital and see it play out where it happened

I think that's the more likely scenario. I'm open for things playing out differently though

 

[LNK]

Do you think Aerith will have a big role in part 3? Or just be non existent until the end like in OG?

Honestly, I see her role being a little more than how Zack was handled in Rebirth. We won't get a lot of screen time with her, but she'll still play a big part. Having a big part to play doesn't necessarily equal a lot of screen time imo. I suspect ZA will have a reunion scene, then after that, they'll be "traveling" together till the final battle. Periodically we'll see what they're up to leading up to it

 

[imach0c0]

Difficult to say. The fact Cloud and the party left her behind at the end of Rebirth is already an in-game excuse for not seeing her at the start of the 3rd game. I think it's necessary to see her active before the end of the game, as Zack's question needs to be resolved. And she's the only one who can do it. But I think she'll be less present than people may think.

I don't think one ZA scene is enough as they have a lot to unpack and it would feel rushed if its all reserved for the endgame. More than just having a "reunion" I think they need to have conversations with each other for character development. So it will be interesting to see how they handle the ZA stuff.

 

[Yoru]

I don't think one ZA scene is enough as they have a lot to unpack. So it will be interesting to see how they handle the ZA stuff.

Thing is I don't know how they want to adress it.

• If they want to go all out with the meta message, she might not even be playable at all. Because playing her "all the time" lessens the feeling of her death, and you lose that missing effect you had in OG.
  
  
• If they want to focus on the game design, that means including Aerith moments as well as Zack moments. So it's starting to feel like a lot of interludes during the main story while there's still a lot to tell with the Cloud & co team.

So it's really complicated. I really don't know

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

This is how I feel. Instead being like ‘oh clerith this or oh clotis that.’ It should be just ‘this extremist shipper believes this thing.’ Healthy debates and discussing differencing opinions should be encouraged.

Ah yes, we could just say "this extremist shipper." Because that won't just lead to someone asking which side they were arguing for I'll stick to specifying, thanks.

Yep. And I’m done. Goodnight folks. Thanks for explaining to me how storytelling works.

Bye, don't forget to write!

Agreed. There are tons of Cloti takes I don't agree with and tons of Cloti fans I don't personally like and therefore don't interact with because they make bad faith arguments and are hellbent on portraying Aerith like the devil himself.

Excuse me?

Thats not something I subscribe to, even if we share the same ship, so I side-eye their takes just as much as I side-eye bad Clerith ones.

This

I like it here because people can talk about things openly and honestly without being shut down, ignored, or villainized.

Even in the worst of times the only people who got villainized by TLS were people who acted villainous. And even then no one was shut out or ignored.

I guess I was just talking about myself a bit, and what I see as an interesting character.

I feel like I can relate to Cloud in some ways, some more than others. So if he didn't have a story of accepting his unextraordinary self, I don't think I would find him nearly as endearing. That's just me though.

This is a phrase I've been seeing a lot lately, and I'm curious where it's coming from. When was Cloud unextraordinary? He got skinned knees from a fall that put Tifa in a coma. He's a prodigy with swords who seems to be taught by experience and observation alone. I'd say to ask the Ravens how ordinary Cloud is but oops Cloud flipped his shit and killed them.

Cloud didn't need to accept his unextraordinary self, he needed to accept that he was extraordinary with or without getting into SOLDIER. Cloud always had the potential to be a hero, what he had to learn is that he's worthy of Tifa because Tifa says so, not dependent on him being in SOLDIER or anything else

 

[Yoru]

This is a phrase I've been seeing a lot lately, and I'm curious where it's coming from. When was Cloud unextraordinary? He got skinned knees from a fall that put Tifa in a coma. He's a prodigy with swords who seems to be taught by experience and observation alone. I'd say to ask the Ravens how ordinary Cloud is but oops Cloud flipped his shit and killed them.

Cloud didn't need to accept his unextraordinary self, he needed to accept that he was extraordinary with or without getting into SOLDIER. Cloud always had the potential to be a hero, what he had to learn is that he's worthy of Tifa because Tifa says so, not dependent on him being in SOLDIER or anything else

To be fair, Jenova cells help a lot with the stuff he can do.

I think the big reveal is that he doesn't have to be Captain America to be someone. He just have to be the country boy he always was. He may have failed the SOLDIER exam, he may be introvert. But he has a heart in the right place. A golden heart that made him move mountains (going after Tifa in the mountais when they were children, Killing Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident etc etc.)

So I think it's a bit of both ? He's a unextraordinary person who made extraordinary achievements to protect what he loves. And he cherishes everything epic music note

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

To be fair, Jenova cells help a lot with the stuff he can do.

Jenova cells and mako infusions help by making him consistently badass. He had none of that when he grabbed a sword and went full blender on a unit of evil super soldiers, nor when he overpowered and killed Sephiroth.

I think the big reveal is that he doesn't have to be Captain America to be someone. He just have to be the country boy he always was.

Exactly, that mountain dwelling kid from the sticks is enough, he was always enough. Clouds struggle to me isn't about accepting that he isn't Captain America, it's about his sense of self-worth being so low he can't see that he already is.

He may have failed the SOLDIER exam, he may be introvert. But he has a heart in the right place. A golden heart that made him move mountains (going after Tifa in the mountais when they were children, Killing Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident etc etc.)

The sad thing is, him going after Tifa is where the problem starts, as far as I can tell. Because he didn't save her then, he convinced himself he was too weak, too worthless. He overlooked the fact that he not only survived that fall, he was barely injured.

This is also a fun connection for future events btw, with how he failed to rescue the girl but he tried and that's enough for said girl. History repeats on that one.

So I think it's a bit of both ? He's a unextraordinary person who made extraordinary achievements to protect what he loves.

On this note in particular I agree fully. He never got the official title of SOLDIER, let alone the prestige of making First Class. In that regard yes, he's ordinary, just some guy. His story is about learning (largely through Tifa) that he doesn't need to be an official, super badass SOLDIER to be extraordinary. Who is, what he can do? It's enough. And vitally, it'd be enough for her even if he was just some guy.

And he cherishes everything epic music note

Still makes me smile every time.

 

[SilverSisu]

Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.

Flowers in terrier world started blooming too. We see this when Elmyra shows them to Zack.

Maybe some worlds have hope after all?