SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Xannis]

Even Hamaguchi himself said she was dead after Rebirth in an interview. He said the party would have to live while carrying on her wish to save the planet or something like that IIRC.

Too bad he won't answer WTF I'm going to do without Arcane Ward. OG Aerith I never particularly vibed with as a character because her basic attack was so weak, offensive casting was clunky, and once you were even moderately skilled you didn't need her as a "Healer" as people liked to say. Basically I hardly used her (only when forced by story actually) so when she died it wasn't a big deal to me gameplay wise.

Remake Aerith on the other hand is a freaking beast and makes others around her a beast too.

 

[Xannis]

My problem with AC and other post-OG works is that Tifa is portrayed as having feelings for Cloud, but Cloud himself is distant and doesn't reciprocate, which just seems like a shitty situation over all.

Doesn't the added scene where Cloud calls Tifa and tells her they're taking the day off to do a picnic kind of address that though? Cloud addresses his distance (and so does Tifa) as not wanting to hurt them (during the part where he wakes up in bed and Denzel has been kidnapped) which makes total sense. Then, after it's passed they move back towards a "normal" where he's not so distant and non-reciprocative? I just never saw why this was a such a reach even if they don't "show it" per se.

Edit: Even without the added scene I just can't see any other interpretation of the ending of AC other than:

• Cloud feels completely forgiven and he's physically and spiritually healed. You've learned why he's been so douchey the whole movie and now realize he's back to himself.
• The big smile he gets on his face when he sees Aerith is not romantic and he's genuinely happy to see her and Zack together and know that they're fine.
• You would then naturally assume he would go back to living with Tifa (as the story stated he was) and we all know what happens when you put two healthy twenty somethings together in a situation like that even if there wasn't all the massive background. Don't need to see to know whats going to be happening at that house after dark after a couple drinks (it was happening before he got Geostigma too by the way)!

 

[Eerie]

The big smile he gets on his face when he sees Aerith is not romantic and he's genuinely happy to see her and Zack together.

That and the Buster sword he puts in Aerith's flowerbed is pretty telling too, in case we were stupid.

You would then naturally assume he would go back to living with Tifa and we all know what happens when you put two healthy twenty somethings together in a situation like that even if there wasn't all the massive background. Don't need to see to know whats going to be happening at that house after dark after a couple drinks.

We don't have to assume, it's actually written in TKAA, which ending coincides with ACC's ending and where Cloud reaffirms that he's the father of their little family, no blood tie, right in front of the church while they are heading to 7th Heaven.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

This is the part where I point out a lot of Japanese media do have this thing where some main character or their love interest will push away the ones they love in order to "protect them." Some will even go as far as having them act mean to their loved ones but secretly care if they're saving/shielding them from something etc.

I'm starting to think because FF7 was one of the first JRPGS many people in the West played and AC probably one their first Japanese movie experiences (and not a great quality one) they are just really unfamiliar with common tropes in Japanese media and saw it as a negative. While to the devs they probably felt it was obvious.

To me that whole "I'm dying so I'm going to leave and I'll push you away so you'll never see me suffer" felt like an angsty Jdrama plot point.

 

[Hellenic]

Too bad he won't answer WTF I'm going to do without Arcane Ward.

There is a very simple solution to that. Doublecast materia. Boom you got your Aerith needs on anyone right there and then. Radiant is the one that actually offered something that we will likely be missing out on now.

 

[eleamaya]

This is the part where I point out a lot of Japanese media do have this thing where some main character or their love interest will push away the ones they love in order to "protect them." Some will even go as far as having them act mean to their loved ones but secretly care if they're saving/shielding them from something etc.

I see this pattern in One Piece lol. And also Rurouni Kenshin. Naruto. Bleach
So yeah.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I see this pattern in One Piece lol. And also Rurouni Kenshin. Naruto. Bleach
So yeah.

Yep. 100% especially in Naruto. Back when I was in that fandom the fans didn't understand that either. It tells me they really don't understand the tropes of the media they watch.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Is there any way to tell how much money the LTD makes SE? I mean, it gets people talking about the game. Maybe engagement is all they're measuring, it's always seen as a positive in the digital age.

To frame it like, "They don't have the balls to confirm a relationship" comes directly from the viewpoint of a shipper. From a dev's point of view, it might take more balls to not confirm anything, because you know the mystery is really what keeps fans coming back. My problem with AC and other post-OG works is that Tifa is portrayed as having feelings for Cloud, but Cloud himself is distant and doesn't reciprocate, which just seems like a shitty situation over all.

I honestly don't think the LTD is a concern - financial or otherwise - for SE? I mean, it's not like FF7 was built for an LTD? Aerith was always supposed to be like a shooting star (forget the original phrasing), like an exchange student who appears for one semester, then moves on.

Or that other quote: "I [the player] like Aerith, but because of the story, I'm stuck with Tifa."

So this whole "SE will never confirm the LTD because it makes them money" just sounds more like a shipper-invented myth than reality. They have, indeed, been confirming it since 1997. It's just people refuse to listen.

This is the part where I point out a lot of Japanese media do have this thing where some main character or their love interest will push away the ones they love in order to "protect them." Some will even go as far as having them act mean to their loved ones but secretly care if they're saving/shielding them from something etc.

I'm starting to think because FF7 was one of the first JRPGS many people in the West played and AC probably one their first Japanese movie experiences (and not a great quality one) they are just really unfamiliar with common tropes in Japanese media and saw it as a negative. While to the devs they probably felt it was obvious.

To me that whole "I'm dying so I'm going to leave and I'll push you away so you'll never see me suffer" felt like an angsty Jdrama plot point.

Western media does it, too, but I don't know if it's to the same extent. Off the top of my head examples: The Mentalist and Harry Potter. The Vampire Diaries, from what I remember of vague memories. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Gossip Girl. Avatar: The Last Airbender, to an extent. There are probably loads more, but I don't really watch TV anymore.

So again, I doubt it's so much that people don't understand, but they just refuse to.

 

[GodofWars]

Hi there ! I'm new. I've been following silently the pages of this forum for a while now, and I get that I might be as welcome as a thunderstorm.
So, to be clear, I played OG, Crisis Core, watched Advent Children, read Traces of Two Past, and I pretty much understand that Tifa and Cloud is the endgame. But I also think that it would not be without Aerith.
Aerith is the one who gets Cloud to admit his love for TIfa is what I mean. I also think that Aerith, despite her love for Cloud, is pushing him towards her.
I get that she loves him. This, for me, is not questionable. But Aerith seems selfless, and on some level, knows, that she cannot get between Cloud and TIfa, and want the best for her friends.
I also get that Aerith's mind is still on Zack (hence the Dream Date).
The way I see it, the devs have made a wonderful, complicated, very human story, where every interaction matters, where every character allows Cloud and Tifa to happen. As for the Dream Date, what I understand from it is it's not somewhat fuel for the LTD, but a huge reminder of Zack, which is why he's constantly there, even in another "world", it's almost a carbon copy of the Crisis Core date.

As for ACC and Cloud and Tifa's relationship treatment... I find there is a lot of dishonesty among fans. One of you wrote an amazing article on that note, and it's worth reading and re reading (and still available on this website). Everything becomes up for debate because it's seen in a shipping point of view instead of an evolutive one. The way I see it, Cloud feels guilt, on a tremendous amount, and it has nothing to do with being in love, but a lot to do about love, which is more nuanced. Whether it's Aerith, Zack, his mother or the three of them, doesn't change the fact that I don't see it as romantic.

On the Remake/ Rebirth note, I'm not so sure about Aerith trying to "protect" Cloud as much as her talking to herself, warning herself that some things aren't meant to be. I don't deny the trope but... For me that's not an example of it. More like Remake Aerith is breaking the fourth wall, talking to the player and talking to herself. Plus, in Rebirth, she's not the one pushing Cloud away, on the contrary. I might argue that Cloud is pushing her away on an unconscious level, by refusing to sit next to her every time she asks. Maybe on some level he knows that she's not meant to last, I don't know. For me, it kind of kills the "I'm pushing you away to protect you" trope. Rebirth Aerith doesn't know she's going to die and Cloud has absolutely no way to know.

So sorry about my phrasing, I'm not an english native, but these are my two cents !

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Hi there ! I'm new. I've been following silently the pages of this forum for a while now, and I get that I might be as welcome as a thunderstorm.
So, to be clear, I played OG, Crisis Core, watched Advent Children, read Traces of Two Past, and I pretty much understand that Tifa and Cloud is the endgame. But I also think that it would not be without Aerith.
Aerith is the one who gets Cloud to admit his love for TIfa is what I mean. I also think that Aerith, despite her love for Cloud, is pushing him towards her.
I get that she loves him. This, for me, is not questionable. But Aerith seems selfless, and on some level, knows, that she cannot get between Cloud and TIfa, and want the best for her friends.
I also get that Aerith's mind is still on Zack (hence the Dream Date).
The way I see it, the devs have made a wonderful, complicated, very human story, where every interaction matters, where every character allows Cloud and Tifa to happen. As for the Dream Date, what I understand from it is it's not somewhat fuel for the LTD, but a huge reminder of Zack, which is why he's constantly there, even in another "world", it's almost a carbon copy of the Crisis Core date.

Sometimes some wording is all it takes to put in doubt a wall of text. Cloud does not need Aer's opinion or whatever for him to admit his love for Tifa ,never did, never will. He did it all on his own. In game he was pursuing Tifa even before knowing Aer. Tifa have been Cloud's goal since forever. Cloud and Tifa are endgame with or without Aer's input because they are written to be endgame. This is mostly about the first half of that first paragraph. I agree with your other points. And welcome to the forums.

 

[GodofWars]

No you're right and I do have a poor way of saying this. What I meant was more like Aerith is a huge part of him opening himself up to what he feels for Tifa and enabling his recognition of his own feelings because she's questioning him about it, like in Kalm or on the top of the Water Tower. It's not so much about her opinion as it is about her way to push him to somewhat always admit what he feels for Tifa. This is also what I meant about other interactions, whether it's with Barret or Red, or Jessie etc. They all help enable this part of Cloud to emerge.

Thanks for the welcome !

 

[Skilganon]

Yeah, it's really cute how Aerith questions Cloud about his past.

I think the purpose of the relationships with Aerith and Tifa are meant to slowly unveil the mystery around Cloud's past, and the pasts of the respective women. We are meant to wonder why Cloud reminds Aerith of Zack, why Tifa is so reticent to talk about Nibelheim. It's a set up for the big reveals later on. I don't think it there was ever supposed to be a competition between Aerith and Tifa, yet the fans were trained to think of it that way from other media. The romance is a minor part of these relationships.

The idea that the player "chooses who Cloud loves" is so ingrained in the fandom at this point, it will require something like a direct statement from the devs to clear it up. I mean, the notion sounds positive because it seemingly invites everyone into the tent. CT and CA shippers can come together and just ignore how they have incontrovertible visions of the story. The CA vision of the story requires the player to ignore like >50% of the characters' backstories and development. Thus in neutral spaces, these specific plot points are no-go.

The thing is, the outcome of the romantic subplot being a mystery is absolutely necessary to the story, because Cloud has amnesia. We find out his past and identity along with him. LTD-like arguments can't be avoided, but I think things can be contextualized better. For example, less people would consider CA as romantic if the dream date had never even happened. That it relates to Zack is something you need to look beyond the surface interpretation to see. Imagine instead, we get to play as Aerith as she's trying to convince herself to go to the Forgotten Capital.

 

[Nancy]

The idea that the player "chooses who Cloud loves" is so ingrained in the fandom at this point, it will require something like a direct statement from the devs to clear it up.

Even if the devs come out with a direct statement it still won't do anything to stop the LTD/ship wars bc some people refuses to see it or acknowledge it

Don't get me wrong. People can still ship what they want or like. What I just don't like or appreciate is that there are still some out there, not pointing fingers at anyone & if you feel like I am then I'm sorry, saying there isn't a canon ship in FFVII when there is obviously one

 

[null]

Remember #Onee-chanGate? There won't be a direct statement from SE, they have a rule about not discussing who Cloud likes in interviews. Kitase brought it up at least twice in the Remake era. Folks will continue to tell themselves the player forced Cloud's face into Tifa's thieving lips, and Word of God won't stop them. KONO TIFA DA!!!

Aerith is dead, but for those who wanted her alive, she's still getting plenty of screentime. The games are remakes, but they're trying hard to satisfy players who want something new. The developers want to please us. They treat our experiences as sacred, and want diametrically opposed groups of fans to play the same product and come away happy. The goal of the LTD is to end the LTD, i.e. "your opinion has been wrong for 30 years, here's the proof, now hang your head in Internet shame and find a new hobby." But that's not really SE's goal at all.

 

[Skilganon]

Aerith is dead, but for those who wanted her alive, she's still getting plenty of screentime. The games are remakes, but they're trying hard to satisfy players who want something new. The developers want to please us. They treat our experiences as sacred, and want diametrically opposed groups of fans to play the same product and come away happy. The goal of the LTD is to end the LTD, i.e. "your opinion has been wrong for 30 years, here's the proof, now hang your head in Internet shame and find a new hobby." But that's not really SE's goal at all.

Regardless of what SE intends, if Cloud and Aerith don't kiss in part 3, or there's not an option to be with Aerith under the Highwind, etc. etc. A lot of people are going to think their opinion has been wrong for 30 years, or that SE changed their mind. If they do multiple endings, then no one will be happy because then there's no canon.

I wouldn't fault someone new to FF7 for thinking the Love Triangle is still undecided. SE created these conditions. The expectation that SE conclude things in a decisive way is completely reasonable.

 

[null]

Cloud will not kiss or have sexual relations with the ghost of Aerith, nor will there be multiple endings in part 3. Why would anyone believe that's where things are headed? Why would Aerith show up during the Highwind scene? Who put these ideas in their heads? If people have expectations based on nothing and get upset when it doesn't happen, how is not their own fault?

 

[GodofWars]

Regardless of what SE intends, if Cloud and Aerith don't kiss in part 3, or there's not an option to be with Aerith under the Highwind, etc. etc. A lot of people are going to think their opinion has been wrong for 30 years, or that SE changed their mind. If they do multiple endings, then no one will be happy because then there's no canon.

I wouldn't fault someone new to FF7 for thinking the Love Triangle is still undecided. SE created these conditions. The expectation that SE conclude things in a decisive way is completely reasonable.

Well, as sure as I am that indeed there won't be multiple endings, or a kiss for Aerith, I'm not so sure about a definitive side taken bluntly.
Without SE being indecisive, I think they designed these relationships on purpose. Things between Cloud, Aerith and Tifa were supposed to be messy, because humans can be like that too.

But then Aerith is dead, and what I notice the most in this fandom is the refusal of having their favorite under the water and move on. Even if Aerith says so herself, that it's not how it's meant to be, that you should accept death and let go for the sake of the future. Some even entered a real delusion that goes against everything Aerith is actually fighting for by saying that Part 3 will be "nevermind Sephiroth, let's go back to Aerith, I must marry her". I agree that these people are in for a very rude awakening.

I think SE wanted fans to debate about every aspect of the game, and the fact that it gets so intense at times is not really their concern, as long as there is passion. After all, debating about relations and human psychology is endless, we're always going to find something new to say, or someone's always going to disagree and bring a new perspective. This is also why I'm pretty sure they won't be an obvious answer, they might work more subtly to show us that it's been Tifa all along. And thus it will always be up for debate for some.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Hi there ! I'm new. I've been following silently the pages of this forum for a while now, and I get that I might be as welcome as a thunderstorm.
So, to be clear, I played OG, Crisis Core, watched Advent Children, read Traces of Two Past, and I pretty much understand that Tifa and Cloud is the endgame. But I also think that it would not be without Aerith.
Aerith is the one who gets Cloud to admit his love for TIfa is what I mean. I also think that Aerith, despite her love for Cloud, is pushing him towards her.
I get that she loves him. This, for me, is not questionable. But Aerith seems selfless, and on some level, knows, that she cannot get between Cloud and TIfa, and want the best for her friends.
I also get that Aerith's mind is still on Zack (hence the Dream Date).
The way I see it, the devs have made a wonderful, complicated, very human story, where every interaction matters, where every character allows Cloud and Tifa to happen. As for the Dream Date, what I understand from it is it's not somewhat fuel for the LTD, but a huge reminder of Zack, which is why he's constantly there, even in another "world", it's almost a carbon copy of the Crisis Core date.

As for ACC and Cloud and Tifa's relationship treatment... I find there is a lot of dishonesty among fans. One of you wrote an amazing article on that note, and it's worth reading and re reading (and still available on this website). Everything becomes up for debate because it's seen in a shipping point of view instead of an evolutive one. The way I see it, Cloud feels guilt, on a tremendous amount, and it has nothing to do with being in love, but a lot to do about love, which is more nuanced. Whether it's Aerith, Zack, his mother or the three of them, doesn't change the fact that I don't see it as romantic.

On the Remake/ Rebirth note, I'm not so sure about Aerith trying to "protect" Cloud as much as her talking to herself, warning herself that some things aren't meant to be. I don't deny the trope but... For me that's not an example of it. More like Remake Aerith is breaking the fourth wall, talking to the player and talking to herself. Plus, in Rebirth, she's not the one pushing Cloud away, on the contrary. I might argue that Cloud is pushing her away on an unconscious level, by refusing to sit next to her every time she asks. Maybe on some level he knows that she's not meant to last, I don't know. For me, it kind of kills the "I'm pushing you away to protect you" trope. Rebirth Aerith doesn't know she's going to die and Cloud has absolutely no way to know.

So sorry about my phrasing, I'm not an english native, but these are my two cents !

Welcome GodofWars. You're welcome to all your opinions and thoughts as this is a forum. One good thing about this place is that at least nowadays, for the most part, most people will be civil even if they don't agree.
Don't worry about the phrasing, I'm also not English native. As are others here.
------------------------------
However I also think you misunderstood my points. I brought up the trope of protecting someone and pushing them away in the context of Advent Children. Meaning Cloud is the one that is pushing his loved ones away because he doesn't want them to see him suffer. Not Aerith. And how many people took that as a negative but it's actually a big trope. Especially in romance.

As for Cloud pushing her away? Absolutely agree. I have always said Cloud Strife took Aerith Gainsborough for granted while she was still alive. And I do believe that is something he also needs to come to terms with along with the crushing guilt of watching her die.

But my point was about people using Cloud, especially in Advent Children pushing people away as some gotcha to show he doesn't care about them. When he obviously does.
---------------------------------
Second. I will say I disagree with your description of the dream date. Or at least most of it. I think there's way more happening than her feelings for Zack there. That's your opinion and I understand it but there's also really a lot more to these characters than the romance in their lives.

Aerith's story is about being the last Cetra and choosing freedom and being a normal person with everything that comes with that such as falling in love, making friends. Versus her responsibility to the planet. And Rebirth is her finally having that freedom, finally having those friends, finally finding that normal life. However of course we know she can't escape her responsibility to the planet.

Zack is featured as an influence in the dream date, yes.
But Aerith's goal there is to say goodbye to Cloud something she never got to do in OG and give him the white materia to help stop Sephiroth's plan. This is something she wanted but couldn't do in Lifestream White. Zack is in the background not the forefront because she still loves him but also just as importantly, she's not sure what happened or what she feels about everything and she's trying to figure it out in Rebirth. He represents another question she never got an answer to in OG as she died never knowing what exactly happened to him. She never got any closure.

But as someone who liked CC enough to almost %100 it, sorry I don't see the date as a carbon copy of the Crisis Core date. I see why people see it that way because it's the same place as the date. She loves the slums and church and cherishes the memories she made there. This includes time with Zack and Cloud.

My view on the dream date is the items and NPCs' words represents that even if Aerith wants to she can't escape her fate. This includes in every category. Even in a dream Aerith can't be with Cloud, even in a dream, the end of the souls Sephiroth is trapping will lead to Geostigma and if they don't stop Sephiroth end of days. This world is fading away as are the souls stuck in the stream. Even in a dream, she can't escape she's going to die. This I think is clearer in Japanese where the photographer NPC says Aerith looks like she's about to cry.
This is also why the candy tastes bitter. And also why the only item you can buy is a reunion flower. She would love to spend more time with Cloud but she can't. She obviously has feelings for Cloud but she can't be with him. And she knows that. And she can only say goodbye and give him the White Materia.
------------------------------------------------
Because Aerith's also got more important stuff to do now like trying to help those who are still alive fight a world ending threat and that's why she's using the dream in the first place to give Cloud the White Materia. Specifically Lifestream White Aerith finally found a way to reach out to Cloud to help fight Sephiroth.

That's why I argue Aerith's dream date is not solely about her feelings for Zack nor is even it solely about her feelings for Cloud.

However, she's also human so she also uses that as an opportunity to say goodbye and sort out the regrets and muddled feelings she had while she was alive.

So yes this includes, but doesn't revolve around, her piecing her feelings for Cloud and Zack. And finding out how Cloud feels about her. She never got told by OG Cloud that he wanted to spend more time together or that he considered her a friend.
So this is her getting closure. But that's not all.

And dream date Aerith is Lifestream White Aerith. So she knows she's going to die. She's acting the way she is because she knows time is short. (And Cloud picks up on it that she's acting weird and unlike her usual self.)

So yes I agree the dream date isn't supposed to be LTD fuel. But I also think it often gets simplified to just one aspect when there's actually a lot going on.

And Zack is basically searching for her at the same time and we know from Advent Children they're going to meet again. Everything now is set up for that.

Welcome again.

Edit: Moved a sentence. Clarified.

 

[GodofWars]

Welcome GodofWars. You're welcome to all your opinions and thoughts as this is a forum. One good thing about this place is that at least nowadays, for the most part, most people will be civil even if they don't agree. Don't worry about the phrasing, I'm also not English native. As are others here.

Thank you, this is deeply appreciated, as bad experiences are also a part of FFVII fandom !

Second. I will say I disagree with your description of the dream date. Or at least most of it. I think there's way more happening than her feelings for Zack there. That's your opinion and I understand it but there's also really a lot more to these characters than the romance in their lives.

Yes, I get that I didn't convey my idea very well. Outside of all shipping, I view Aerith and Zack's fate as completely intertwined. They're both selfless, true heroes in the greek sense of the term, meant not to get their own needs answered but to be the ones who sacrifice themselves for the greater good. When I said that Zack is always in the background, I meant that they follow the same path, and, as you said are the end of your post, they are now set up to reunite and work their magic together in the lifestream.
But I also think that Zack is the only time before meeting the FFVII party that Aerith experienced being "just a girl", and this is why there is such all callback here. Whether it's conscious or not, this was the very first opportunity she had at love, and I think it makes sense she's trying to reproduce that in the dream date.

My view on the dream date is the items and NPCs' words represents that even if Aerith wants to she can't escape her fate. This includes in every category. Even in a dream Aerith can't be with Cloud, even in a dream the end of the souls Sephiroth is trapping will lead to Geostigma and if they don't stop Sephiroth end of days. This world is fading away as are the souls stuck in the stream. Even in a dream, she can't escape she's going to die. This I think is clearer in Japanese where the photographer NPC says Aerith looks like she's about to cry.
This is also why the candy tastes bitter. And also why the only item you can buy is a reunion flower. She would love to spend more time with Cloud but she can't. She obviously has feelings for Cloud but she can't be with him. And she knows that. And she can only say goodbye and give him the White Materia.

I agree partly. If I remember correctly, when she's found by Sephiroth, he says something along the lines of her choosing to hide in a doomed world. I'd say that, even before the date begins, she asks him to play along exactly because she already knows it cannot be. It's probably my headcanon but I even think she picks this world, partly because of the urgency of their situation but also because she needs an environment where everything is fated to die to not give a real room to "what-if's". As you said, this is meant to be a goodbye and to pass along the white materia, not necessarily to explore what it would be like to date Cloud. But this is only my opinion .

However I also think you misunderstood my points. I brought up the trope of protecting someone and pushing them away in the context of Advent Children. Meaning Cloud is the one that is pushing his loved ones away because he doesn't want them to see him suffer. Not Aerith. And how many people took that as a negative but it's actually a big trope. Especially in romance.

As for Cloud pushing her away? Absolutely agree. I have always said Cloud Strife took Aerith Gainsborough for granted while she was still alive. And I do believe that is something he also needs to come to terms with along with the crushing guilt of watching her die.

But my point was about people using Cloud, especially in Advent Children pushing people away as some gotcha to show he doesn't care about them. When he obviously does.

You're right, I did misunderstood ! And now that I get it a bit better, I'd like to add something. I think that before he tries to protect his family, he's trying to protect himself. At this point, Cloud is drowning in self-loathing, and being confronted to what he considers his failure (protecting and helping Denzel and getting sick as well), is too much for him. He doesn't even want to try before Tifa scolds him, and to me that speaks a ton. I think he's kind of relieved to leave it to Tifa, up until the moment where she tells him to get his shit together. The way I see it, AC has absolutely no romantic plot or subplot whatsoever, except for the new ending added in ACC. I do agree, though, that never answering his phone when she calls is his way to protect her, but not only.

Welcome again.

Thanks again !

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@GodofWars

I see what you mean about ZA. For transparency I'm a CA fan who sees CT and ZA as endgame. And I see ZA in a similar way as you. Their fates are intertwined even outside of the romance aspect. And I think it says a lot that even in a dream world Zack's presence is still there.

About the recreation of the dream date I agree Zack was the first instance of Aerith feeling like a normal girl. I agree her date with him is a cherished memory.

I just think it's not the only memory and rather than trying to recreate the past Aerith is a character set on creating new memories. ("Gotta look forward not back" and OG Tifa's "She looked forward to the future more than any of us " plus her insistence on going on "dates" in Rebirth shows me she's a character that wants to live in the moment and looks to the future not the past) That's why I don't think she's trying to recreate a past memory here. Nor is she trying to replace her precious memory with Zack by pushing Cloud in his place like others think. But to create a new one in a place she cherishes.

Here she is saying goodbye to Cloud but also hoping to make one last final memory with him. A new different one. However it's very obviously a bittersweet moment as no matter what she does the shadow of her fate and not just hers but the planet 's lingers. And no matter what she does her conflicted feelings for Cloud and her love for Zack also have an influence.

I took her saying play along not as "play along we're on a date" but as play along that this world isn't ending and not to question the situation and let her say her piece because there's not enough time to explain . Because she's also telling him to not look up at the sky where there's a giant tear.

So that's my thoughts on that. But I understand your view.

I hope see more of your thoughts on this forum .
I appreciate your views as they make me think deeper about the story as well.

 

[GodofWars]

I hope see more of your thoughts on this forum .
I appreciate your views as they make me think deeper about the story as well.

This is very sweet !
I do very much enjoy debating about this game, especially the depiction of relationships, that I think was masterfully handled. This forum seems to be one of the most peaceful places to do just that, and I do like the fact that no one here needs to belittle one of the girls to praise the other . I like them both, so having the insight of both teams is always interesting to me !

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I do like the fact that no one here needs to belittle one of the girls to praise the other . I like them both, so having the insight of both teams is always interesting to me !

I like them both too. In fact I'm still impressed that these two characters were created in 1997. They're the very definition of strong female characters and girl power. They both have such amazing strength having overcome tragedy and hardships and yeah I am really enjoying to seeing their stories in HD.

 

[GodofWars]

I'm impressed by the fact that this game still gets people so emotional and so passionate that you can talk about it for hours and never really reach an end. And that it's been the case for 30 years amazes me even more. All of the characters deserve such high praise !

 

[Eerie]

Welcome @GodofWars. Others have already answered you, but now the quotes are in block so might as well answer that xD

Aerith is the one who gets Cloud to admit his love for TIfa is what I mean. I also think that Aerith, despite her love for Cloud, is pushing him towards her.

I highly disagree with this. Because notably both time she speaks about them being childhood friends, not anything else, and that's this bond specifically that she is jealous of because it's something that she didn't get to enjoy.
Cloud didn't need Aerith to know his feelings; that's why he called Tifa to the water tower, because he liked her already. That's why in 2k gil... he talks about taking any door and any path that open to him to become a hero, and a special being for Tifa. His feelings aren't muddled, he remembers well - that's why he wants to kiss her in MSQ and does so in the GS date, because the devs wanted to pointed out that already at this time, Cloud and Tifa are already in love with each other.

I get that she loves him. This, for me, is not questionable. But Aerith seems selfless, and on some level, knows, that she cannot get between Cloud and TIfa, and want the best for her friends.

I disagree about the selfless part; I think her arc is going from someone selfish to someone selfless, which means that there are plenty of moments where her selfishness is displayed - the water tower moment does come to mind: she cares more about her feelings than the fact that this is the place where Cloud and Tifa lived their worst trauma; look at how Barret reacts in Nibelheim to understand how Aerith's moment does stick out. But Aerith does become selfless starting chapter 13 and ToA, IMHO, where she takes the decision to save the planet no matter what.

Tifa's arc is the contrary, going from selfless to be more selfish when it's needed (Mideel, but also her talk with Cloud in AC/C).

The way I see it, the devs have made a wonderful, complicated, very human story, where every interaction matters, where every character allows Cloud and Tifa to happen. As for the Dream Date, what I understand from it is it's not somewhat fuel for the LTD, but a huge reminder of Zack, which is why he's constantly there, even in another "world", it's almost a carbon copy of the Crisis Core date.

I disagree a bit; to me the dream date is about Aerith wanting to save the planet first, by giving to Cloud the white materia (she states it will save the world, so I feel maybe we're going to see Aerith praying to awake Holy again as Sephiroth is defeated), then it's about telling Cloud what she (CoLW Aerith) had always wanted to tell him (her feelings, goodbye...). Zack is here for the player, not for Aerith; it is here to tell the player that it's him whom she truly wants in a date. But that's the setup for p3 and their reunion.

I might argue that Cloud is pushing her away on an unconscious level, by refusing to sit next to her every time she asks. Maybe on some level he knows that she's not meant to last, I don't know.

I think it's not unconscious at all, he does put distance between them because in the end, she is only a friend to him. So he materialises that with the distance she closes (because she's the one doing all the emotional work in their relationship). But that doesn't mean his feelings are going to change.

The romance is a minor part of these relationships.

I disagree. I think it's actually quite a big part of the CT relationship, and that they act the way they do because they are in love with each other. Same goes with Aerith, she acts the way she does because it's undeniable that she is interested in him, romantically at least during Rebirth - I tend to think that she wasn't into him that much in Remake, it really started during Rebirth and I feel that her losing her memories of the future, including the one of CT being together (that imho she definitely had the first time Cloud said Tifa's name in Remake), really made her think "why not?" because all she saw in him was Zack.

The goal of the LTD is to end the LTD, i.e. "your opinion has been wrong for 30 years, here's the proof, now hang your head in Internet shame and find a new hobby." But that's not really SE's goal at all.

I do think ending the LTD is part of SE's plans. It shouldn't have lasted that long, they have told several times that Cloud and Tifa were in love with each other (who listens nowadays?), they have pushed a CT kiss while Aerith was alive (which kills the "but if Aerith was alive, for sure Cloud would choose her!").

But we're going to enter a heavy part for CT (think about it, the most romantic scenes await us!) and ZA will undeniably have their reunion. And for those two pairs to work, they need to kill CA. Especially for ZA, as Marlene told Zack that Aerith loved Cloud now. This needs clearing up, and Zack isn't staying as second best.

If they do multiple endings, then no one will be happy because then there's no canon.

I don't know if you remember but during the Remake era, I kept saying Aerith's death was written all over it, and it wasn't about the flashes of memories but rather how she was written.

In the same way I can say that CT is written all over Rebirth, and there will be no multiple endings. There has always only been one story going forward, the same is happening. There is no alternate universe.

Cloud will not kiss or have sexual relations with the ghost of Aerith, nor will there be multiple endings in part 3. Why would anyone believe that's where things are headed? Why would Aerith show up during the Highwind scene? Who put these ideas in their heads? If people have expectations based on nothing and get upset when it doesn't happen, how is not their own fault?

The most amusing thing to me is how people don't realise this: CAs are asking all the heavy romantic parts for themselves, yet cry that it's not romantic for CT. Then why are you asking this for yourself, if it wasn't romantic? And then fans get gaslit a lot about this.

And dream date Aerith is Lifestream White Aerith. So she knows she's going to die. She's acting the way she is because she knows time is short. (And Cloud picks up on it that she's acting weird and unlike her usual self.)

I think Cloud keeps mentioning she's acting weird for us to pick up that she's not "our" Aerith, but a different one. And I still think the church is her promised land

 

[Skilganon]

Cloud will not kiss or have sexual relations with the ghost of Aerith, nor will there be multiple endings in part 3. Why would anyone believe that's where things are headed? Why would Aerith show up during the Highwind scene? Who put these ideas in their heads? If people have expectations based on nothing and get upset when it doesn't happen, how is not their own fault?

This belief logically follows from the notion that "Cloud loves both(romantically)" or "You choose who Cloud loves", which are phrases widely spread to diffuse any acrimony over the love triangle. I truly feel that SE needs to be decisive if they want fans to have an accurate reading of FF7's romance.