SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
The interesting thing is, you don't need Jenova or timelines to explain why Cloud can see Aerith. In Traces of Two Pasts, it describes how Cetra are able to maintain their will in the Lifestream as a spirit for some limited amount of time before they fade away completely. Aerith was able to talke to Ifalna for at least a few weeks after her death. Cloud could simply be seeing Aerith's spirit from the lifestream in the same way young Aerith saw her mother.

Would this count as a manipulation? I don't really see it that way. One question I have is why Cloud seems more vulnerable here than he was in the OG. He didn't block out Aerith's death originally, so what changed?
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I see. I do believe Nojima about his intentions. When looking at everything else plus his statement I can see it.

However when calling something a love song ballad etc. as I said there's implications so maybe there was some intentional misdirection there.

Also I have to say I'm especially confused about the parallels to Greatest Showman. He's saying that the song is about everyone. I believe him. But isn't The Greatest Showman sequence they used about the singer falling in love with a man who has another love? So the singer would be singing to that man specifically in that sequence right? Isn't that a huge discrepancy from "singing about everyone."?
So Never Enough isn't exactly a love song and it's not exactly sung specifically to Barnum. It's kind of a lament, in that it's about how all the fame and riches and accolades mean nothing without love and while Lind IS falling in love with Barnum, the song causes HIM and Legally Distinct Bailey to realize what is important to them: re romance and for Barnum to prioritize his wife and Legally Distinct Bailey to be willing to openly romance Zendaya despite their differing social stations and ethnicities.
There are specific shots in the NPTK sequence that are almost shot for shot homages to the Never Enough sequence in Greatest Showman - I almost shorthanded to GS but Gold Saucer - including the part when Cloud takes Tifa's hand mirroring Not-Bailey gripping Zendaya's.

Maybe this is why Loren Allred who sang Never Enough got the impression it was a romantic song to a guy. And I mean can we blame her?
In that both songs are a woman pouring her heart out yeah, I can see the confusion, but one seems to be "It means nothing without love" and the other is "All this love I give to everyone who has given it to me"

As for Jenova and the persona and the memory edits... It's never JUST Jenova, Cloud uses Jenova to make his persona, and he does block out Zack's death on his own to preserve that persona, but there's the question for example of why he suddenly remembers Zack... but misremembers how he died. That's why people think Sephiroth might be gaslighting him with memory edits just as he gaslights Cloud about things like Tifa being having no scar and being a fake.
To that specific end I could see Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's perception of the death sequence to rug pull him with it later, like he did in the trials, because I am entirely 100% convinced he somehow managed to get Cloud and Tifa's trials swapped, both because he used the trial to gaslight Cloud not feeling much for a sequence that seems much more tailored to Tifa's trauma, while Tifa is stuck back at Nibelheim but at a moment where Cloud is being traumatized, not her. There's also the reunion Lily on her mailbox, which also appeared in the Ch2 flashback but NOT in the ch9 lifestream depiction of her house.

Anyways, TL;DR Sephiroth is a gaslighty motherfucker and fucking with Cloud's perception is something he's been doing for two games now.
 

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I don't think it's likely Sephiroth swapped Cloud and Tifa's trials.

Cloud's trial starts in Mako Reactor 1, something Tifa didn't experience. She also didn't experience Biggs' death which is a big part of that trial. Tifa's trial ends with her finding the corpse of her father in the Nibelheim reactor, something Cloud didn't experience. I think the reason C and T show up in each other's trials is because they are just linked that way subconsciously.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I can't accept that the Aerith saying goodbye in that beautiful ending scene is Jenova, or Cloud's delusion. That's the worst possible way to send her off. But at the same time, there's nothing separating that Aerith from the one by the pool. "I'll see you off." With that sour note playing, and her hair mysteriously fixed, and acting like nothing happened, and feeling like everything's wrong.

The two Aeriths seem logically connected, but the way they're presented feels... incompatible. Like, I can either feel sad or creeped out, but both at once is weird and doesn't really work.

The whole ending is like that. I keep asking myself: which Aerith am I looking at right now? The one who was just killed? The one who came strutting out to totally kick her murderer's butt? A hallucination? An alien? A corpse? The problem is, they all belong in very different emotional spaces. Combining them leads to an incoherent distracting mess.

What's frustrating is there's some real genius mixed in there. Cloud's brain hiding his own meltdown was peak cinema. And in general, I'm on board with recontexualizing Cloud as the true victim of Aerith's death while she's the one doing the protecting. If they're not going to burn Advent Children to the ground, the next best thing is fixing the gaping thematic plot holes instead of duct taping OTWTAS over them.

But goddamn, that was the worst scene to convert into a disposable cliffhanger. You want to keep people talking? Make trailers. That's where the engagement bait belongs.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I don't think it's likely Sephiroth swapped Cloud and Tifa's trials.

Cloud's trial starts in Mako Reactor 1, something Tifa didn't experience. She also didn't experience Biggs' death which is a big part of that trial. Tifa's trial ends with her finding the corpse of her father in the Nibelheim reactor, something Cloud didn't experience. I think the reason C and T show up in each other's trials is because they are just linked that way subconsciously.
Cloud absolutely would have seen Brian running up the hill out of town towards the reactor and seen his body in the reactor as he approached.
As for the reactor and Biggs, yes, it's a reactor and yes, it's Biggs, but A: Biggs didn't die in a reactor, and Cloud didn't see any exploded reactor either, and B: Biggs and Jesse are much closer to Tifa than Cloud. Sephiroth's obviously hijacked the trial, he makes Biggs' body vanish, what's to say he didn't put it there in the first place.

Even with Biggs there, the theme of the trial could be "All these deaths are on your hands, these innocents, your friends" something Tifa has expressed doubts and remorse over previously.

I mean it could just be because they're linked subconsciously, but we know Sephy's up to his usual bullshit regardless.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I don't think Nojima anticipated it or maybe he didn't mind at first if people saw it that way. But then the response of the audience or maybe even the description of love song caused obvious confusion he had to clear up prompted an answer.
It is to note that the first Ultimania also talked about this and we know interviews are made months ahead... which was before the TGA trailer, so even before fans knew about this.
However when calling something a love song ballad etc. as I said there's implications so maybe there was some intentional misdirection there.
This is true however when you play the game as CT, it's impossible to see it as a love ballad, as clearly they look very happy, in love and hold hands together while she sings in front of them. Imagine if that was a love song for Cloud, I refuse to see it that way - it would be the most awful rejection.
One of the theories I often see among the fandom is that Jenova is responsible for Cloud's false persona, as well as the cover up of Zack and Aerith's deaths. I disagree.

While there may be some evidence of this, I think it's safe to say this is inconsistent given Cloud's own monologue in the OG after the LSS. He says that he constructed this persona from his own ideals.

But on a deeper level, I think it makes more sense psychologically and narratively that Cloud himself creates these illusions as a defense mechanism. This is his main character flaw, as has been demonstrated numerous times. Jenova would want Cloud to see the truth, to be broken by his friends' deaths. She would want Cloud to ruminate on his failures and become a psychological wreck like the other reunion clones. This explains why Cloud breaks free from Jenova's control when he regains his memories and accepts the past. He's no longer ashamed of his failures.

Jenova doesn't have any reason to make Cloud believe he is Zack, or cover up Aerith's death, her interests are in fact, the opposite. Sephiroth even goes further at the Northern Crater, suggesting a lie that's actually worse than the reality. I know there may be evidence to back up these claims, I just think my own interpretation of this is more satisfying to me.
Jenova imprinted Zack's memories onto Cloud when Zack died. Then when he saw Tifa at the train station, Cloud awoke from his mako poisoning state and made up his SOLDIER life thanks to:
  • Cloud's strong desire to be seen as a hero to Tifa,
  • the memories Jenova had imprinted onto him prior,
  • the reading of Tifa's memories by Jenova, which allowed Jenova to push that illusion.

We then see her temper with several Cloud memories alongside Remake and Rebirth. We know this is how she manipulated the Cetras, she took the form of people who were dear to them.

Yes, psychologically, Cloud is weak, and had his dreams shattered, and so she took advantage of that. His strong desire to be a hero to Tifa. His strong desire to save Aerith. His strong desire to forget he had already failed his best friend. But it's not ONLY Cloud's doing there, Jenova also allows also all of this to feel really tangible, real. Cloud takes the whole blame, but Jenova was also manoeuvering in his own head, making it even more difficult for him to set free of the illusions he created.

And we see Cloud having that speech too in Rebirth (we don't hear it). That is what is happening outside of Jenova's shenannigans. He just doesn't see it at all in his head. He really is a puppet.

That's why we see the crask in the sky at the end: because Cloud has built his own world (SOLDIER Cloud) and it's soon going to shatter.
The intention for Sephiroth and Jenova is not only that he'd be a normal clone, but to break him in a way he won't be able to come back ever. Because he's done a major crime: he killed Sephiroth. That's why he is special to them and that's why Sephiroth is obsessed with him: just a normal grunt killing the most powerful SOLDIER? Ah! He's going to pay dearly for that!
I agree with all of this. I don't think the Aerith Cloud sees is actually there. She's repeating the same exact things she's said in the past.

The only part I question myself on this is when she says goodbye. And Red sensing her apparently. It does seem like her in those parts.

But the one next to the lake I think is definitely in his mind.

I interpreted that scene as this is what's Cloud's mind is doing to keep himself together after her death. It's a coping mechanism to deal with trauma. Jenova cells do make it easier for illusions to seem real. But I don't think Jenova or Sephiroth is going out of the way to orchestrate the illusion or anything. Why would they care if Cloud breaks? Better for them.

But Cloud's mind to protect itself would definitely come up with a lie. I think this makes a lot of sense and yes it matches the fact he's a master of his own "illusionary world".
She doesn't exactly say all the things she said in the past; one of the biggest thing, IMHO, that deviates, is how she wants Cloud to kill Sephiroth instead of taking care of himself. To me, it shows an Aerith Cloud imagines based on how he thinks Aerith is (which is wrong), rather than how she actually was. Which is exactly what young Sephiroth said in EC to Jenova cosplaying Lucrecia: "you're how I always imagined you to be", I mean, OUCH. Touché.
To that specific end I could see Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's perception of the death sequence to rug pull him with it later, like he did in the trials, because I am entirely 100% convinced he somehow managed to get Cloud and Tifa's trials swapped, both because he used the trial to gaslight Cloud not feeling much for a sequence that seems much more tailored to Tifa's trauma, while Tifa is stuck back at Nibelheim but at a moment where Cloud is being traumatized, not her. There's also the reunion Lily on her mailbox, which also appeared in the Ch2 flashback but NOT in the ch9 lifestream depiction of her house.
I disagree with this, to me it's very clear that they were not reversed. But an unintended twist is that this trial begins in Cloud's world (yeah, this is real Cloud there!); I think that's because she saw his memories of that day in chapter 9 so that she could connect to his world, and their desire to meet again. That and also her world is connected to his, which allows her to hop onto her own memory when she enters the reactor (yes, we see her turning back and she can't see Nibelheim anymore because those two worlds are different). You should read my Tifa theory in the general Rebirth area xD

Edit: it's here https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/theorycraft-tifa-and-the-lifestream-scenes.23802/
I can't accept that the Aerith saying goodbye in that beautiful ending scene is Jenova, or Cloud's delusion. That's the worst possible way to send her off. But at the same time, there's nothing separating that Aerith from the one by the pool. "I'll see you off." With that sour note playing, and her hair mysteriously fixed, and acting like nothing happened, and feeling like everything's wrong.
It's definitely a mix of Jenova and real Aerith. The maths is simple: Cloud cannot see the dead unless he's in the Lifestream. So when he sees Aerith, it's the wrong Aerith, it's Jenova cosplaying as Aerith. When he does not look, it's the real Aerith going around.

It really is that simple.
 
Last edited:

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
One question I have is why Cloud seems more vulnerable here than he was in the OG. He didn't block out Aerith's death originally, so what changed?

Here's what I think: in OG, Cloud went snowboarding after Aerith's death. Outside of the death scene itself, Aerith wasn't mentioned often and Cloud wasn't shaken to his core over it (or Zack's death, which was optional to watch). The developers didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal.

The movie made it into a big deal. And many fans were loudly underwhelmed with the explanation they were given.

For Remake, they (Nojima and Nomura) have a stated goal of correcting "distortions in perception" with the introduction of Compilation entries and and "converging [the differences] into one". Cloud being established as super fragile over the deaths of his loved ones prior to AC is a far more convincing reason for his relapse than the one the movie gives.

It's definitely a mix of Jenova and real Aerith. The maths is simple: Cloud cannot see the dead unless he's in the Lifestream. So when he sees Aerith, it's the wrong Aerith, it's Jenova cosplaying as Aerith. When he does not look, it's the real Aerith going around.

It really is that simple.

I'm sure they're going for something clever like that. To me, it just distracts from the part that really matters. They did such a beautiful job with her death. I'd rather they left the Jenova mind games for early part 3 and let the players grieve in the moment.
 
Last edited:

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Here's what I think: in OG, Cloud went snowboarding after Aerith's death. Outside of the death scene itself, Aerith wasn't mentioned often and Cloud wasn't shaken to his core over it (or Zack's death, which was optional to watch). The developers didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal.

The movie made it into a big deal. And many fans were loudly underwhelmed with the explanation they were given.

For Remake, they (Nojima and Nomura) have a stated goal of correcting "distortions in perception" with the introduction of Compilation entries and and "converging [the differences] into one". Cloud being established as super fragile over the deaths of his loved ones prior to AC is a far more convincing reason for his relapse than the one the movie gives.
Well they went snowboarding because they were fleeing Icicle village, not because it was fun (although it was a fun minigame). Her death was mentioned when real Cloud came back, but it's true that Cloud did not grieve Aerith (which is shown in AC/C as well as CoT), and that's what's giving him multi layers of guilt towards her, alongside not being able to protect her.
I'm sure they're going for something clever like that. To me, it just distracts from the part that really matters. They did such a beautiful job with her death. I'd rather they left the Jenova mind games for early part 3 and let the players grieve in the moment.
I think I disagree, to me her death was better in the OG. But this time, I'll concede, they went for the Cloud angle rather than the Aerith angle, which makes her death about his mental health and not about herself - which is what I really think is missing. I guess we're going to see what truly happened in next game, but yeah, so far my criticism is that. They also have acknowledged that they went for the Cloud angle, which explains the Jenova meddling.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
Oh, definitely agree her death was handled way better in OG. The new scenes that reflect OG are the best ones imho.

Yeah maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll add the uncensored version to the Lifestream scene. Tifa might want to sort that scene for herself while she’s in there (she looked pretty horrified at something Cloud censored out).
 

GodofWars

Rookie Adventurer
I’m hopeful that Part 3 will deliver the real emotional payoff, the kind that leaves you completely gutted. But I’ll admit, I have some doubts. With all the new characters and plot threads introduced, and with Rebirth leaving so many loose ends untied, it feels like they’ve only created more room for speculation. I’m not sure one game will be enough to wrap everything up in a satisfying way.


When I first finished Rebirth, I wasn’t heartbroken, I was just confused, borderline angry. The long goodbyes felt empty, Aerith’s “here but not here” moments pulled me out of the scene instead of into it, and I kept thinking "This is too much". I’ve since made my peace with the way they chose to depict the ending, but I still think it would have landed far harder if it had happened at the Northern Crater, and this has already been said here. Right now, the constant “does she live or die?” debates feel like they’re taking attention away from Cloud’s journey. I love Aerith, but her fate shouldn’t overshadow the emotional low point we haven’t even reached yet.

So I do agree that OG was better in that regard. It delivered a raw, merciless depiction, it was brutal and my shock was absolute.
 
Last edited:

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll add the uncensored version to the Lifestream scene. Tifa might want to sort that scene for herself while she’s in there (she looked pretty horrified at something Cloud censored out).
I disagree, the LSS is a love confession scene, so if I look at the OG, it contained scenes only pertaining to Cloud and Tifa: their past memories as well as the knot of the story: the Nibelheim incident. I expect both scenes to get developped (I really want a whole rerun of the Nibelheim event with the real story!), but this is a triomphant part of Cloud's arc, the deaths of his friends have no place there.

Zack's death scene was later in game, in Nibelheim's mansion, and I expect Aerith's death scene to take place when we return to the City where she was buried.
Right now, the constant “does she live or die?” debates feel like they’re taking attention away from Cloud’s journey.
I am really hoping they won't go there for the PR of p3, I think that the devs were really clear in their interviews post-Rebirth that she was gone. And p3 PR will have to focus on Cloud's identity troubles because that's the huge thing that's literally starting with p3: we are going to lose Cloud pretty fast, compared to the length of the game. I do expect a lot of Cloud, Tifa, and CT PR actually because that's the story ahead of us, amongt a lot of really cool things to PR: the huge materia quest, the Highwind, the Weapons... man so much COOL STUFF ahead with every character's arc closing? Yeah they have to LAND this. HARD.
 
Top Bottom