SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Tbf, he can communicate in AC as well when he wants to, a bit. He talks to Vincent, he talks to Aerith, and during the dilly dally shilly shally scene he does open up to Tifa.

Yeah but he only opens up when he's cornered. I want him to open up before he runs away. I don't even necessarily need him to tell Tifa he has geostigma, I just need him to voice some of his fears about being unable to save to Denzel and how it's compounding with his other thoughts re: Aerith and Zack.

Tbh I think even Nojima made reference to it a bit at the end of Rebirth where Tifa tells him that if he's struggling with his mental health or thinking strange thoughts, he should talk to someone even if it's not her--just someone. Which he agrees to do, so I'm hoping it'll lead into a re-telling of ACC
where he hasn't just ghosted everyone.

 

[Yoru]

I actually just started a fresh OG playthrough. He doesn’t really yell at her, but he does argue pretty heatedly with Barret before storming off. Tifa goes after him and brings up the promise so he’ll stay for the next job.

Barret comes up from the basement hideout and throws him 1500 Gil, Cloud scoffs at it before saying he’ll do the next job for 3000. Barret gets mad, Tifa mediates, Barret counter offers for 2000 Gil.

So Cloud doesn’t really yell at her in the original. In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters. He does eventually chill out. I need to do a Remake replay sometime soon.

Marlene's school money.... damn you Cloud Strife.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah but he only opens up when he's cornered. I want him to open up before he runs away. I don't even necessarily need him to tell Tifa he has geostigma, I just need him to voice some of his fears about being unable to save to Denzel and how it's compounding with his other thoughts re: Aerith and Zack.

Tbh I think even Nojima made reference to it a bit at the end of Rebirth where Tifa tells him that if he's struggling with his mental health or thinking strange thoughts, he should talk to someone even if it's not her--just someone. Which he agrees to do, so I'm hoping it'll lead into a re-telling of ACC
where he hasn't just ghosted everyone.

I honestly think Aerith and Zack should’ve only appeared at the very end, and more of the party should’ve been involved. So many of the others overlap with some of Cloud’s struggles, and a spirit session with Aerith and Zack feels like a cheap solution.

I feel like ACC could benefit from cutting back on some of the external conflict and really focusing in on the internal one.

 

[abzy1200]

He yells at Barret and tries to storm off, she confronts him about it, he immediately stops in his tracks, even before the brings up the promise, and he decides to stay around and help, though he's still a hardass with Barret.

I think I might be remembering an exclamation mark that isn't there in that interaction with Tifa after he storms off and it's just the two of them in the bar.

Thing is, it's wrong to compare the first scene with Tifa with the first scene with Aerith. Not only because of Tifas relationship to Fake Cloud and how he might be faking harder with her. But also because it simply happens earlier in the story, even there he arguably mellowed out a bit by the time you fall into the church.

I guess, it's just that they're only really within a day of each other.

More seriously, from what I remember you can't be really mean to Tifa in OG. Your choices are something like "Positive/Neutral"

"Next to you, who wouldn't?"

I mean it is, in JP it matches exactly when he looks at Tifa when he repeats "those you love" and there's only Tifa and Sephiroth in the scene: Sephiroth in Kalm says "those you hate, those you love" in that order but in Gongaga Cloud switches them so it'd match Tifa when he says "those you love". So it's veryyyy intentional yeah.

Of course, but I'm just adding more 'evidence' that it's about Tifa, since this is also how it was in the OG.

Literally the only people Jenova became to fool her prey (On screen and relevant people, atleast) were those Cloud loved and those he hated.

I need to do a Remake replay sometime soon.

I honestly don't think I could after Rebirth. Rebirth's combat is so much more fluid it makes Remake feel jank and clunky in comparison, especially combat in the air.

Wonder what changes they'll make for part 3, if any.

In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters.

Kinda forgot he was a bit adamant about that in Remake, yeah. But he makes up for it by calling her beautiful, so he's still not in Tifa's bad books just yet.

 

[Yoru]

In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters.

I loved this interaction personally. Because we're coming from the bombing mission with a Cloud full of himself, and suddenly when he's alone with Tifa we see a very childish side of him. Same energy when your mom is telling you to go brush your teeth lol

For me it was already pretty telling how he's different with her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wait what ? Are you implying we were already "winning" in OG ?

I mean, I know you're joking, but we've always been winning.

More seriously, from what I remember you can't be really mean to Tifa in OG. Your choices are something like "Positive/Neutral"

A lot of them are "Nice to Tifa/ Mean to someone else, probably Barret"

But Remake/Rebirth is definitely pushing their relation way upfront. Even ignoring "optional scenes" the game is pretty clear about the "tension" between them.

Yeah, it's taking time to really expand on them and give them moments to just be together all across the narrative.

Two triangles make a square lol. The point is that this is a debate concerning 4 points. We may as well say that Cloud/Aerith/Tifa isn't a triangle since there is no line between Aerith and Tifa.

Sometimes they make two triangles that make a bigger triangle. Or a parallelogram. And you're right, the term triangle is not wholly accurate, it just sounds much better than "love open wedge"

 

[Maidenofwar]

The year is 2055 ... the LTD now features drones and sentient AI amongst it's ranks. Virtual real space is subject to massive attacks raiding to rewrite coding.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I’m over here doing some interpretation math and I’m going to offer it up for discussion:

If we take the whole “Jenova appears to you in the form of those you love, those you hate, those you fear” as completely literal ( I personally take what was said in the Temple of the Ancients more at face value )

And we take Cloud repeating that verse in Chapter 9 as a diet confession that he loves Tifa ( since, you know, obviously doesn’t hate or fear her )

And IF it’s proven that there is a Jenova manipulation of Aerith mixed into the ending segment of Rebirth somewhere, do we then draw the conclusion that Cloud does love Aerith?

We do also have the whole “even if you think you love me, it’s not real” from Remake and the “when you meet my future self, you’re gonna love her” from Costa del Sol that may yet play a role in part 3.

 

[Yoru]

“when you meet my future self, you’re gonna love her”

She doesn't say that in the Japanese script so don't put too much weight on it I think.

 

[pxl_pushr]

She doesn't say that in the Japanese script so don't put too much weight on it I think.

Oh really? What does she say?

 

[Yoru]

Oh really? What does she say?

Japanese text is : ううん 未来のわたしに頼んだ きっとすっごくいい女だよ お見逃しなく

And it's something like : No, I asked my future self to do it. She's definitely a great woman. Don't miss it.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Japanese text is : ううん 未来のわたしに頼んだ きっとすっごくいい女だよ お見逃しなく

And it's something like : No, I asked my future self to do it. She's definitely a great woman. Don't miss it.

I really need to replay this game in Japanese.

 

[abzy1200]

From what I gather, Aerith at the end of Rebirth is a lifestream world thing and not a Jenova thing. So probably not.

He also doesn't suspect it's her, which is the important part.

 

[Stiggie]

Japanese text is : ううん 未来のわたしに頼んだ きっとすっごくいい女だよ お見逃しなく

And it's something like : No, I asked my future self to do it. She's definitely a great woman. Don't miss it.

Damn, arrogant

 

[Ryeleigh]

Japanese text is : ううん 未来のわたしに頼んだ きっとすっごくいい女だよ お見逃しなく

And it's something like : No, I asked my future self to do it. She's definitely a great woman. Don't miss it.

Damn, arrogant

DeepL translates it as "No, I asked the future me. I'm sure she's a very nice girl. Don't miss it." Which is less arrogant, lol. (And yes, I know but my Japanese is really rudimentary.)

But either way that's another reference gone. English, please.

 

[abzy1200]

That "those you fear" also isn't there in Japanese.

They really are remaking ff7 aren't they? Down to the bad translations that lead people to think Clerith is more canon than it actually is.

 

[ViolaaFox]

That "those you fear" also isn't there in Japanese.

They really are remaking ff7 aren't they? Down to the bad translations that lead people to think Clerith is more canon than it actually is.

Which is pretty funny because in the German translation they seemed more like a Couple of Besties to me. For example our translation of the red dress scene or the first meeting between Cloud and Aerith was very different from the English version.

 

[Yoru]

DeepL translates it as "No, I asked the future me. I'm sure she's a very nice girl. Don't miss it." Which is less arrogant, lol. (And yes, I know but my Japanese is really rudimentary.)

But either way that's another reference gone. English, please.

I've always seen Aerith with a cocky/cheeky side to play down a situation. That's why I used the most "expressive" shapes of きっと(kitto)

But yes, at no point does she pretend to know what Cloud will think of her in japanese.

Honestly, the English version matches the idea of the sentence. It's just that in this twisted fandom, phrases like that take on a whole new meaning, but that's not the translators' fault.

 

[abzy1200]

Do we think the LS in part 3 will show more of Cloud and Tifa's early years than what was shown in ToTP? Like literally anything that happened before the promise.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Do we think the LS in part 3 will show more of Cloud and Tifa's early years than what was shown in ToTP? Like literally anything that happened before the promise.

ToTP is from Tifa’s perspective, so the LS scene will likely repeat a few points but will be mainly from Cloud’s pov, his thoughts/feelings etc

We’ll get the bridge incident again, but Tifa will likely see more into how Cloud felt about all of it, why he stuck around, why he took the blame for it ( including what her dad said to him ), and what basically fueled his calling her to the water tower in the first place.

People think we’re going to cover other stuff since Tifa already had her LS experience about a lot of the same stuff, but I don’t think we will. They’ll expand on it being strictly about the core of who Cloud is and why he ended up where he is. It’s where we get the most crucial part of the very beginning of the story: when Tifa first finds Cloud.

There’s actually quite a lot we need to cover and explore, but you can only see that if you actually keep track of just how much the LS scene covers.

If anything gets added, it might be a short version of Zack’s death that can be filled in elsewhere with more of Zack’s input when Cloud has been put back together.

 

[Ryushikaze]

ToTP is from Tifa’s perspective, so the LS scene will likely repeat a few points but will be mainly from Cloud’s pov, his thoughts/feelings etc

We’ll get the bridge incident again, but Tifa will likely see more into how Cloud felt about all of it, why he stuck around, why he took the blame for it ( including what her dad said to him ), and what basically fueled his calling her to the water tower in the first place.

People think we’re going to cover other stuff since Tifa already had her LS experience about a lot of the same stuff, but I don’t think we will. They’ll expand on it being strictly about the core of who Cloud is and why he ended up where he is. It’s where we get the most crucial part of the very beginning of the story: when Tifa first finds Cloud.

There’s actually quite a lot we need to cover and explore, but you can only see that if you actually keep track of just how much the LS scene covers.

If anything gets added, it might be a short version of Zack’s death that can be filled in elsewhere with more of Zack’s input when Cloud has been put back together.

It's possible we might get other childhood incident details, and a clearer picture (the definitive picture!) of the events of the final showdown in Nibelheim. While I do think remembering Zack's final stand should come right around here, I don't actually want it to come during the lifestream sequence. I want it to come right after, during his reintroduction speech. And I want him to explain via a flashback then crossfade over into Zack doing the exact same flashback to explain to Aerith what happened to him and how he's not sure he's alive. Bonus points for if he remembers all the various doggyverses. THEN I want the two of them to worry about Cloud and fade back over to the party and we can get Cloud talking about having his head messed with, how he thought Aerith was still alive even after her death, and the party suggests heading back there for both closure and clues, and then we get the unedited death scene.

Seriously, Nojima, I know you wrote the script, but hire me. I have the writing and filmmaking experience. And it might make the heads of the people who annoy you on twitter just explode out of frustration.

 

[imach0c0]

It's possible we might get other childhood incident details, and a clearer picture (the definitive picture!) of the events of the final showdown in Nibelheim. While I do think remembering Zack's final stand should come right around here, I don't actually want it to come during the lifestream sequence. I want it to come right after, during his reintroduction speech. And I want him to explain via a flashback then crossfade over into Zack doing the exact same flashback to explain to Aerith what happened to him and how he's not sure he's alive. Bonus points for if he remembers all the various doggyverses. THEN I want the two of them to worry about Cloud and fade back over to the party and we can get Cloud talking about having his head messed with, how he thought Aerith was still alive even after her death, and the party suggests heading back there for both closure and clues, and then we get the unedited death scene.

Seriously, Nojima, I know you wrote the script, but hire me. I have the writing and filmmaking experience. And it might make the heads of the people who annoy you on twitter just explode out of frustration.

The cross fade flashback of Cloud remembering Zack's death to Zack explaining it to Aerith is an interesting idea. I can kinda see a scene like that with Zack reading Aerith's letters and it cross fades into Aerith's voice narrating it. (kinda like when Zack read's Bigg's note when he goes to bomb the reactor).

As someone with filmmaking and writing experience, how would you direct the ZA reunion? (if there is one)
I wonder how it can be executed to have maximum emotional impact without it being an info dump. Do you think one scene is enough?

Before the reunion, it would be interesting if Zack got the 88 letters and realized she died in his world. Its an opportunity to explore his guilt and have him deal with his "failure" for not being there for her and have to come to terms with that on his own. This not only provides him with insight into Aerith's commitment to him but it also sets him up with context regarding Aerith's POV during his absence. This also creates a build up so that when they meet, it can be focused on ZA clearing the waters and coming to a resolution. As opposed to them explaining everything from scratch to each other and resolving it.

 

[pxl_pushr]

The cross fade flashback of Cloud remembering Zack's death to Zack explaining it to Aerith is an interesting idea. I can kinda see a scene like that with Zack reading Aerith's letters and it cross fades into Aerith's voice narrating it. (kinda like when Zack read's Bigg's note when he goes to bomb the reactor).

As someone with filmmaking and writing experience, how would you direct the ZA reunion? (if there is one)
I wonder how it can be executed to have maximum emotional impact without it being an info dump. Do you think one scene is enough?

Before the reunion, it would be interesting if Zack got the 88 letters and realized she died in his world. Its an opportunity to explore his guilt and have him deal with his "failure" for not being there for her and have to come to terms with that on his own. This not only provides him with insight into Aerith's commitment to him but it also sets him up with context regarding Aerith's POV during his absence. This also creates a build up so that when they meet, it can be focused on ZA clearing the waters and coming to a resolution. As opposed to them explaining everything from scratch to each other and resolving it.

Blame KH for this idea.

I actually think a neat way to open part 3 is showing Aerith mid descent into the water but you slowly transition it into her falling into white and you repeat her original meeting with Zack but their roles are flipped

 

[Sacky]

Anyone else hate the idea of multiple endings. I feel like waiting this long to be a choose your own ending for the final part. Would be terrible.
Also they can make 15 bad endings and one good but not everyone will see that ending, so the arguments on which one is canon would never
end. Pretty much, in my opinion the worst possible outcome that or an ambigious interpet your own ending. If you have a story to tell also have a ending that you are confident in.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

He found a sword, got busy. Also worth noting, should he be downed in battle there, his KO quote references Tifa and the promise.

Exactly. He forgets the whole thing right after, because mentally he is just some guy. He's not mentally ready for what he can do, it's why he was rejected from SOLDIER in the first place. But physically? Nah, he's a beast waiting to be let off it's chain.

For that matter, let's go back to Nibelheim again. Specifically Zack encouraging Cloud to "finish Sephiroth." Something Zack himself absolutely failed to do. And yet Zack calls this out, rather than "Cloud take the gurl and run/hide" or "Cloud, save yourself" it's "Cloud, finish Sephiroth." Methinks Zack knows and is counting on Cloud pulling a Gohan here.

Fitting for a lot of Yoko Taro's games.

Indeed.

For the sake of plausible deniability, of course I wouldn't. Wink.

Pleasure not doing business with you then I'll just write the list for funsies, nothing to see there.

I never said there was much down to get to.

You'd think they'd improve, there's nowhere to go but up. Sadly the trend seems to be trying to go ever lower and thus staying at rock bottom.

Yeah, that was the idea. People make fairness happen. Doesn't mean all of them.

Mores the pity. We'd all be better off if more folks tried.

Also a great idea.

I thought so.

Always good to have a backup plan, even if that plan is "SMASH"

It's a solid fallback option when a more cerebral approach fails. Full Primal State, embrace the inner Spear.

It's the catharsis aspect.

Y'know when they say "what goes around comes around?" There is great joy in responding with "I am what's coming around."

Welk.

Welk here we are again, it's always such a pleasure...

Norman can ruin his day. Editorial can ruin his whole character development.

Seriously, and they know it. Fourth wall aware folk like Deadpool hang lampshades on it after all. I must thus assume that their fuckery is intentional.

That's his secret, he was born Super Saiyin!

Someone asked me once what we'd call a fusion of adult Gohan and Mirai Trunks. I said "Cloud."

They both have sex on top of rocks before a pivotal moment.

At least Cloud and Tifa are extra durable. Not sure how Jean isn't one big bruise.

Hence the "enjoyably evil" qualifier. First Evil was a cohesive villain, just not, you know, that watchable.

They had their moments, but yeah Glory was the moment.

I mean, if we're being thorough.

No other way to be

In another installment of the "Have we fallen back in time" series, saw on the Clerith subreddit people talking about the Credits for Advent Children and the Cleriths there were talking about Cloud searching for Aerith. You know, forget the running a delivery service and him actually going around to visit friends to pick up a "closed" sign so he goes and takes a day off with his family. Shipping goggles, man.

Honestly? After all these years it's like they haven't taken a single step. I mean, if Cloud was searching for Aerith... why? He bloody well knows where she is if he was so desperate to reunite.