SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

The cross fade flashback of Cloud remembering Zack's death to Zack explaining it to Aerith is an interesting idea. I can kinda see a scene like that with Zack reading Aerith's letters and it cross fades into Aerith's voice narrating it. (kinda like when Zack read's Bigg's note when he goes to bomb the reactor).

As someone with filmmaking and writing experience, how would you direct the ZA reunion? (if there is one)
I wonder how it can be executed to have maximum emotional impact without it being an info dump. Do you think one scene is enough?

Before the reunion, it would be interesting if Zack got the 88 letters and realized she died in his world. Its an opportunity to explore his guilt and have him deal with his "failure" for not being there for her and have to come to terms with that on his own. This not only provides him with insight into Aerith's commitment to him but it also sets him up with context regarding Aerith's POV during his absence. This also creates a build up so that when they meet, it can be focused on ZA clearing the waters and coming to a resolution. As opposed to them explaining everything from scratch to each other and resolving it.

So, if I remember correctly, 88 of her 89 letters are being held by Tseng, the 89th managed to make it to Zack thanks to the Angeal beast, so he know a bit about them.
However, I want to start their reunion very early. Literally the start of Part 3. I think we are actually going to start with a small segment playing as Aerith- no combat, just her wandering through sector 5. She knows something's wrong, so she wants to get back to "our place" and heads towards the church. We flash back a little bit to Zack. who's been chilling in the church, when he is confronted by Tseng, and the two- maybe with Reno and Rude as backup- fight for our soft tutorial. Like in Pt2, you can't lose. Once you beat the fight, Aerith shoves open the doors to tell off everyone for fighting in the church, her and Zack's eyes meet, and we get -and this is basically simultaneous- Zack framed on the left, Aerith on the right sort of deal, dual subtitle action going on.
"Aerith!" "Zack!"
"You're-"
"Awake!" "Alive!"

Short pause.
Zack: "I'm what now?"
Aerith: "Nothing! I missed you. It's been five years!" Where were you?"
Zack: "It's a long story. Where to begin?"
Aerith: "Why not... the very beginning."

And then we fade into Icicle Inn, in what Gast's old home. Cait Sith has led them here for more information on what might be going on with Sephiroth, as he led the project. While they look for information, they come across the Ifalna tapes, and start playing them, including Aerith's birth and Gast's death.

That's like our Act 1.

Anyone else hate the idea of multiple endings. I feel like waiting this long to be a choose your own ending for the final part. Would be terrible.
Also they can make 15 bad endings and one good but not everyone will see that ending, so the arguments on which one is canon would never
end. Pretty much, in my opinion the worst possible outcome that or an ambigious interpet your own ending. If you have a story to tell also have a ending that you are confident in.

I want Zero branching for this, and I want the game to have a definite post- meteor epilogue to remove all ambiguity.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Anyone else hate the idea of multiple endings. I feel like waiting this long to be a choose your own ending for the final part. Would be terrible.
Also they can make 15 bad endings and one good but not everyone will see that ending, so the arguments on which one is canon would never
end. Pretty much, in my opinion the worst possible outcome that or an ambigious interpet your own ending. If you have a story to tell also have an ending that you are confident in.

That would be the worst imo

I much prefer the “all roads lead to Rome” approach of the first half having some choice but the second half is a curated experience.

At most I can see them throwing in one final “choice” but the curser will fight you on it to simulate Cloud making his own decision.

I’d much rather a single ending to wrap this all up. Let us rest lol

 

[Ryushikaze]

Exactly. He forgets the whole thing right after, because mentally he is just some guy. He's not mentally ready for what he can do, it's why he was rejected from SOLDIER in the first place. But physically? Nah, he's a beast waiting to be let off it's chain.

For that matter, let's go back to Nibelheim again. Specifically Zack encouraging Cloud to "finish Sephiroth." Something Zack himself absolutely failed to do. And yet Zack calls this out, rather than "Cloud take the gurl and run/hide" or "Cloud, save yourself" it's "Cloud, finish Sephiroth." Methinks Zack knows and is counting on Cloud pulling a Gohan here.

Cloud's a born shitkicker.

Pleasure not doing business with you then I'll just write the list for funsies, nothing to see there.

And if those people would have happened to suddenly have died 15 years ago, that would be pure not even coincidence.

You'd think they'd improve, there's nowhere to go but up. Sadly the trend seems to be trying to go ever lower and thus staying at rock bottom.

They're blasting at bedrock to find a lower bottom.

Mores the pity. We'd all be better off if more folks tried.

Indeed we would.

I thought so.

Ironic hats for fire and explosives!

It's a solid fallback option when a more cerebral approach fails. Full Primal State, embrace the inner Spear.

Then of course there's the state of pure cold fury.

Y'know when they say "what goes around comes around?" There is great joy in responding with "I am what's coming around."

While one should not chase the high of a righteous fury eternally- that way lies the shitshow that is social media- there is something nice about unleashing it at just the right moment.

Seriously, and they know it. Fourth wall aware folk like Deadpool hang lampshades on it after all. I must thus assume that their fuckery is intentional.

It must suck for Gwen Poole, especially. She's not only aware of the fourth wall but also of how her personality changes. She's had to fight herselves to sort that bullshit out.
Even then, Pete gets it worse.

Someone asked me once what we'd call a fusion of adult Gohan and Mirai Trunks. I said "Cloud."

Yeah. No dispute there.

At least Cloud and Tifa are extra durable. Not sure how Jean isn't one big bruise.

Having the Phoenix Force/ Actually being the Phoenix Force thinking it was Jean.
Comic Books!
Actually, I want to look at the four primary women Scott has dated in his life.
Jean Grey
A cosmic entity that decided it would be fascinating to be Jean Grey while it healed her ruined body after she basically gave her life for others.
A Clone of Jean Grey
Emma Frost.
He was also for a brief time having thoughts about Psylocke when she was in an Asian woman's body or whatever the situation there actually was.
Man has a type and that type is psychics.

They had their moments, but yeah Glory was the moment.

She was consistent and amazing the entire season long. Not even the Mayor had her presence and screen power.

Honestly? After all these years it's like they haven't taken a single step. I mean, if Cloud was searching for Aerith... why? He bloody well knows where she is if he was so desperate to reunite.

Almost like he DOESN'T want to die and reunite with her?

Actually, fun point of order, the conversation he has with Tifa at the end of the OG game is also referred to as a promise in a few Ultimania entries. Literally it's a promise to visit their deceased loved ones together. Cloud and Tifa made a promise to be together even in death.

That would be the worst imo

I much prefer the “all roads lead to Rome” approach of the first half having some choice but the second half is a curated experience.

At most I can see them throwing in one final “choice” but the curser will fight you on it to simulate Cloud making his own decision.

I’d much rather a single ending to wrap this all end. Let us all rest lol

Since we're on the topic of fourth wall breaks, I can just imagine Cloud actually reaching out and taking hold of the little selector Icon and wrenching it to the topic he wants to discuss. Someone else can even ask him what he was just doing. "Nothing, just dealing with something that's been bothering me for awhile now. Anyways, about [topic]..."

 

[imach0c0]

So, if I remember correctly, 88 of her 89 letters are being held by Tseng, the 89th managed to make it to Zack thanks to the Angeal beast, so he know a bit about them.
However, I want to start their reunion very early. Literally the start of Part 3. I think we are actually going to start with a small segment playing as Aerith- no combat, just her wandering through sector 5. She knows something's wrong, so she wants to get back to "our place" and heads towards the church. We flash back a little bit to Zack. who's been chilling in the church, when he is confronted by Tseng, and the two- maybe with Reno and Rude as backup- fight for our soft tutorial. Like in Pt2, you can't lose. Once you beat the fight, Aerith shoves open the doors to tell off everyone for fighting in the church, her and Zack's eyes meet, and we get -and this is basically simultaneous- Zack framed on the left, Aerith on the right sort of deal, dual subtitle action going on.
"Aerith!" "Zack!"
"You're-"
"Awake!" "Alive!"

Short pause.
Zack: "I'm what now?"
Aerith: "Nothing! I missed you. It's been five years!" Where were you?"
Zack: "It's a long story. Where to begin?"
Aerith: "Why not... the very beginning."

And then we fade into Icicle Inn, in what Gast's old home. Cait Sith has led them here for more information on what might be going on with Sephiroth, as he led the project. While they look for information, they come across the Ifalna tapes, and start playing them, including Aerith's birth and Gast's death.

That's like our Act 1.

Yes -- regarding the letters.

Why would Tseng, Rude or Reno fight Zack? In CC, Tseng seemed like an ally to him. IIRC - Tseng sent the turks to get Zack back alive and safe.

Also - in Rebirth, it seems that Aerith is unaware of Zack "existing" in the other world. And whenever she has mentioned him, she seemed sad. So I assume the first time she sees Zack again, though she would be happy, I think she would be overwhelmed with emotion and not know how to react at first. So I feel like the dialogue between them during that first meeting would have a lot of push and pull as opposed to a straightforward conversation.

Do you think it cheapens the ZA tragedy if they have frequent interactions throughout part 3? Part of the tragedy is their lives got cut short and they were separated from one another. So I wonder if them interacting and sharing "new" moments together would take away from that. (as well as Aerith's "death"). Though part 2 has created a lot of setup, from a narrative standpoint, I wonder if its more effective to build up to the ZA reunion for the end instead. Having said that, one the issues that could arise with a ZA reunion near end game (and them only interacting together in one scene) would feel like an info dump, given their history and the number of unresolved issues between them.

How would you do Act 2 and Act 3?

 

[nars305]

Talking about if they’ll incorporate Tifa’s past/ToTP-

In the Mideel part where she stays with Cloud, is there a lot of conversation they have there or is it just the place Tifa is left? Like do they hang out around with Cloud a lot or just the part where he is found?

If not, I think that’d be a nice space to incorporate those past memories she has with Cloud as he is in his mako coma. It’s always a thing when people are bed ridden and in a coma that their loved one talks to them.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes -- regarding the letters.

Why would Tseng, Rude or Reno fight Zack? In CC, Tseng seemed like an ally to him. IIRC - Tseng sent the turks to get Zack back alive and safe.

Sorry, I skipped over that part. The Turks come to check up on Aerith, they talk a bit, misunderstandings, Zack actually initiates the fight. The turks aren't giving it their all but they are fighting back. Once Zack sees Aerith the fight stops and the Turks take the opportunity to go back into the wings.

Also - in Rebirth, it seems that Aerith is unaware of Zack "existing" in the other world. And whenever she has mentioned him, she seemed sad. So I assume the first time she sees Zack again, though she would be happy, I think she would be overwhelmed with emotion and not know how to react at first. So I feel like the dialogue between them during that first meeting would have a lot of push and pull as opposed to a straightforward conversation.

She's definitely happy, but she's also quite confused- I did not communicate this because it's not answered yet, this is an Aerith that has herself just come from the fight against Sephiroth in Rebirth. She finds herself led here by the Other Aerith, same as Zack did. In this take on the story the Aerith seen talking to Cloud during the credits would be a ghost (though it could also be a delusion, but I don't think so) rather than existing in a different world.

Do you think it cheapens the ZA tragedy if they have frequent interactions throughout part 3? Part of the tragedy is their lives got cut short and they were separated from one another. So I wonder if them interacting and sharing "new" moments together would take away from that. (as well as Aerith's "death"). Though part 2 has created a lot of setup, from a narrative standpoint, I wonder if its more effective to build up to the ZA reunion for the end instead. Having said that, one the issues that could arise with a ZA reunion near end game (and them only interacting together in one scene) would feel like an info dump, given their history and the number of unresolved issues between them.

How would you do Act 2 and Act 3?

I might do more than just three acts. One of them is definitely Zack explaining his near death and Aerith explaining she felt him die but couldn't admit it, one is Aerith discussing her near death and wondering if that means she died. Near the end the two of them are going to join together with the main party to fight Sephiroth- like in the Bizarro Seph fight and it'd be great if they were AI helpers to Cloud and Tifa in solo and joint fights against Sephiroth (Zack and Cloud, Aerith and Tifa, then all four together), then the final 1 v 1 after everything.

I think they should fight knowing there's a chance they lose their chance to be happy together, that they are fighting for what's right for their friends, because that's who the two of them are. Their deaths were senseless tragedy. Now give them happiness and togetherness and make them give it up for the right thing. Turn tragedy into cruelty.

 

[Sacky]

Talking about if they’ll incorporate Tifa’s past/ToTP-

In the Mideel part where she stays with Cloud, is there a lot of conversation they have there or is it just the place Tifa is left? Like do they hang out around with Cloud a lot or just the part where he is found?

If not, I think that’d be a nice space to incorporate those past memories she has with Cloud as he is in his mako coma. It’s always a thing when people are bed ridden and in a coma that their loved one talks to them.

she stays there and you can keep interacting with her and she just speaks some dialogue lines. But they can very much expand it maybe have Tifa do some missions around the area idk. The nurses all comment on how much she must love him to be there all day

 

[imach0c0]

Sorry, I skipped over that part. The Turks come to check up on Aerith, they talk a bit, misunderstandings, Zack actually initiates the fight. The turks aren't giving it their all but they are fighting back. Once Zack sees Aerith the fight stops and the Turks take the opportunity to go back into the wings.

All good, makes sense.

She's definitely happy, but she's also quite confused- I did not communicate this because it's not answered yet, this is an Aerith that has herself just come from the fight against Sephiroth in Rebirth. She finds herself led here by the Other Aerith, same as Zack did. In this take on the story the Aerith seen talking to Cloud during the credits would be a ghost (though it could also be a delusion, but I don't think so) rather than existing in a different world.

Interesting. I took this as Cloud's denialism + jenova shenanigans creating this projection of Aerith. However, I think the Aerith standing by the reunion flowers in the last shot as she says "goodbye" is the "real" Aerith in spirit form.

I think they should fight knowing there's a chance they lose their chance to be happy together, that they are fighting for what's right for their friends, because that's who the two of them are. Their deaths were senseless tragedy. Now give them happiness and togetherness and make them give it up for the right thing. Turn tragedy into cruelty.

This is an interesting way to go on about it. Build false hope to the player and rip it away.

Question --
Zack talks about wanting to take back his life and Aerith talks about defying fate and how the future is not set in stone. What is the point of introducing these ideas if both characters meet the same tragic end? Is there a bigger moral or narrative message at play?

 

[Maidenofwar]

I've seen some CAs who also don't want multiple endings, naturally chaos goblin that I am I'll go against the grain

 

[pxl_pushr]

All good, makes sense.

Interesting. I took this as Cloud's denialism + jenova shenanigans creating this projection of Aerith. However, I think the Aerith standing by the reunion flowers in the last shot as she says "goodbye" is the "real" Aerith in spirit form.


This is an interesting way to go on about it. Build false hope to the player and rip it away.

Question --
Zack talks about wanting to take back his life and Aerith talks about defying fate and how the future is not set in stone. What is the point of introducing these ideas if both characters meet the same tragic end? Is there a bigger moral or narrative message at play?

To me, if they do the whole “defy fate and make your happy ending”, that’s just doing what every jrpg does… which seems odd for an FF that experimented with subverting a lot of the trends of its contemporaries.

From what I gather so far, “defying fate” is less about changing the outcome and instead giving yourself agency in that outcome. Aerith doesn’t just die because fate ( aka The Planet/Planet’s memory ) says so, she dies because it lets her fight against Sephiroth in a way only she can for the sake of her friends.

So Zack may have an opportunity to live, but he’ll choose to be with Aerith. The result is the same, but the role you play in it can change. If that makes sense?

What role Zack plays in all this ( besides obviously reuniting with Aerith ) has me curious. Is he Aerith’s asset, or is he The Planet’s asset? Are those the same thing, or slightly different?

 

[Stiggie]

That would be the worst imo

I much prefer the “all roads lead to Rome” approach of the first half having some choice but the second half is a curated experience.

At most I can see them throwing in one final “choice” but the curser will fight you on it to simulate Cloud making his own decision.

I’d much rather a single ending to wrap this all end. Let us all rest lol

Do A "just monika" but with Tifa XD

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Cloud's a born shitkicker.

S'all I been sayin'

And if those people would have happened to suddenly have died 15 years ago, that would be pure not even coincidence.

Naturally, any other conclusion someone might draw is just silly.

They're blasting at bedrock to find a lower bottom.

It's a long way to go yet, but if they keep at it they gotta go up eventually.

Indeed we would.

Fair play is our friend.

Ironic hats for fire and explosives!

Well now I wonder what sort of hats the rockets, pipe bombs and sticky bombs would like.

Then of course there's the state of pure cold fury.

That sort of rage that I always think of as the "Oh shit Spidey shut up" kinda mad.

While one should not chase the high of a righteous fury eternally- that way lies the shitshow that is social media- there is something nice about unleashing it at just the right moment.

All things in moderation, and in their proper time.

It must suck for Gwen Poole, especially. She's not only aware of the fourth wall but also of how her personality changes. She's had to fight herselves to sort that bullshit out.
Even then, Pete gets it worse.

Well he is the soul of Marvel after all. When things suck for all, he takes it the worst.

Yeah. No dispute there.

I mean, barring the Spirit Sword/Sword of Hope Trunks needs a bigger blade but other than that it works nicely.

Having the Phoenix Force/ Actually being the Phoenix Force thinking it was Jean.
Comic Books!

Ahhh the good old Phoenix Force. Overcomplicating shut since it first appeared, but too awesome to ignore in spite of that.

Actually, I want to look at the four primary women Scott has dated in his life.
Jean Grey
A cosmic entity that decided it would be fascinating to be Jean Grey while it healed her ruined body after she basically gave her life for others.
A Clone of Jean Grey
Emma Frost.
He was also for a brief time having thoughts about Psylocke when she was in an Asian woman's body or whatever the situation there actually was.

Pslocke finally got her body back I hear. Which is funny to me cause I'm pretty sure she was trapped in an Asian super-ninja body longer than she appeared in original form, real time. As you said, comics!

Man has a type and that type is psychics.

You're not wrong. The man likes his ladies to know their way around the inside of someone else's head.

She was consistent and amazing the entire season long. Not even the Mayor had her presence and screen power.

Which is saying something cause Wilkins was also consistent, amazing, and able to whiplash between comical and genuinely threatening at the drop of a hat. Plus he had the genuine evil loved ones thing with Faith. And Glorificus still owns.

Almost like he DOESN'T want to die and reunite with her?

Madness, I know.

Actually, fun point of order, the conversation he has with Tifa at the end of the OG game is also referred to as a promise in a few Ultimania entries. Literally it's a promise to visit their deceased loved ones together. Cloud and Tifa made a promise to be together even in death.

This needs emphasis, and then QFFT everywhere.

Since we're on the topic of fourth wall breaks, I can just imagine Cloud actually reaching out and taking hold of the little selector Icon and wrenching it to the topic he wants to discuss. Someone else can even ask him what he was just doing. "Nothing, just dealing with something that's been bothering me for awhile now. Anyways, about [topic]..."

This has some mild Drakengard 3 vibes. If Zero shows up, we can all laugh as everyone including Sephiroth nopes the fuck out.

 

[Hellenic]

Kind of sad when some people seem to see it as worth less that Denzel was adopted by Cloud and Tifa. As if they couldn't love him like a biological son.

At the end of the day it's just a ridiculous excuse to find something to deny that they are together and have a family. Or perhaps some idiots out there actually think adopted kids are worth less than biological ones, who knows.

 

[Yoru]

At the end of the day it's just a ridiculous excuse to find something to deny that they are together and have a family. Or perhaps some idiots out there actually think adopted kids are worth less than biological ones, who knows.

No adopted kids are important. But only if Aerith is their mother. And Cloud their father.

 

[Hellenic]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

She wouldn't know what ultimately happened to him, couse how would she really? She never saw him again after the Nibelheim incident, but she does know that he didn't in fact die in the river like Cloud thinks.

 

[ViolaaFox]

No adopted kids are important. But only if Aerith is their mother. And Cloud their father.

It's fine they already have these blue baby things or whatever Twitter called them.

 

[ViolaaFox]

Do A "just monika" but with Tifa XD

I saw memes about Aerith being Monika.

 

[Hellenic]

It's fine they already have these blue baby things or whatever Twitter called them.

Also apparently the 2 small weapons we got in Rebirth are somehow Cloud and Aerith too, or some weird theory like that was existing now too. Didn't really look into it deeper though couse i couldn't care less to be honest.

 

[ViolaaFox]

Also apparently the 2 small weapons we got in Rebirth are somehow Cloud and Aerith too, or some weird theory like that was existing now too. Didn't really look into it deeper though couse i couldn't care less to be honest.

Yes, because we finally know that everything that is pink is Aerith. I think I have the links to some of these Tweets still on my phone it was wild.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yes, because we finally know that everything that is pink is Aerith. I think I have the links to some of these Tweets still on my phone it was wild.

Pink > light red > red = ruby > Ruby Weapon

lol nah couldn’t be. Although…

But seriously Mideel foreshadowing of the obvious nature, but I do wonder if they’re gonna add another Weapon or two.

 

[Hellenic]

But don’t let this Glenn thing be the answer lol I really do not want that, even if I can see it written plain as day in front of me.

Yeah not a fan of this idea either, but man he looks so much like Cloud it's insane.

 

[Hellenic]

Pink > light red > red = ruby > Ruby Weapon

lol nah couldn’t be. Although…

But seriously Mideel foreshadowing of the obvious nature, but I do wonder if they’re gonna add another Weapon or two.

I don't think we need more than these 2 new ones and then the already existing ones. Baby whales being there for the Cloud and Tifa Lifestream shenanigans and us facing against the OG ones possibly under Sephiroths influence.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah not a fan of this idea either, but man he looks so much like Cloud it's insane.

I’m hoping it’s his uncle. As unlikely as that is to be the answer, I’m hoping they take a left turn and it’s his uncle.

There’s likely 2 whales for Cloud and Tifa, one gets sliced by good old sushi chef Sephiroth, it spits the one out and the other swallows them so they end up in the same whale. Commence LS scene in haste.

 

[Hellenic]

I’m hoping it’s his uncle. As unlikely as that is to be the answer, I’m hoping they take a left turn and it’s his uncle.

There’s likely 2 whales for Cloud and Tifa, one gets sliced by good old sushi chef Sephiroth, it spits the one out and the other swallows them so they end up in the same whale. Commence LS scene in haste.

I wouldn't mind the uncle route probably.

I guess he might end up finishing off the one he failed to in Rebirth later on and that does sound like a smooth way of having them both be in the same memories. Do the good ole Yin/Yang pose between the two inside the Materia capsule in the whale while it's happening.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I wouldn't mind the uncle route probably.

I guess he might end up finishing off the one he failed to in Rebirth later on and that does sound like a smooth way of having them both be in the same memories. Do the good ole Yin/Yang pose between the two inside the Materia capsule in the whale while it's happening.

Reusing the ying/yang symbolism there would be a nice touch