SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GodofWars]

Welcome @GodofWars.

Thank you !

I highly disagree with this. Because notably both time she speaks about them being childhood friends, not anything else, and that's this bond specifically that she is jealous of because it's something that she didn't get to enjoy.
Cloud didn't need Aerith to know his feelings; that's why he called Tifa to the water tower, because he liked her already. That's why in 2k gil... he talks about taking any door and any path that open to him to become a hero, and a special being for Tifa. His feelings aren't muddled, he remembers well - that's why he wants to kiss her in MSQ and does so in the GS date, because the devs wanted to pointed out that already at this time, Cloud and Tifa are already in love with each other.

Thanks for the reply ! I appreciate that you took the time to read and answer, even if we diverge on a few points.


Just to clarify: when I said Aerith helps Cloud recognize his love for Tifa, I wasn’t suggesting he didn’t already love her. I meant that post-Mako-dip Cloud, fragmented and emotionally locked, grows through his interactions. Not just with Aerith but with all the party members, and that growth enables him to eventually express those feelings clearly. Love doesn’t always translate into action right away, especially when someone’s healing from deep trauma.

I disagree a bit; to me the dream date is about Aerith wanting to save the planet first, by giving to Cloud the white materia (she states it will save the world, so I feel maybe we're going to see Aerith praying to awake Holy again as Sephiroth is defeated), then it's about telling Cloud what she (CoLW Aerith) had always wanted to tell him (her feelings, goodbye...). Zack is here for the player, not for Aerith; it is here to tell the player that it's him whom she truly wants in a date. But that's the setup for p3 and their reunion.

I don’t think he’s just “there for the player.” I see him as a structural indicator of how the Lifestream works. His presence, and the way his path starts to mirror Aerith’s, suggests a broader pattern, where both characters are trying to save the planet from different ends.. That isn’t necessarily about shipping, but rather about thematic echoes and how the narrative is showing us multiple ways to fight for hope, and how they both embody that.

This is the way I feel about it anyway !

 

[Eerie]

I don’t think he’s just “there for the player.” I see him as a structural indicator of how the Lifestream works. His presence, and the way his path starts to mirror Aerith’s, suggests a broader pattern, where both characters are trying to save the planet from different ends.. That isn’t necessarily about shipping, but rather about thematic echoes and how the narrative is showing us multiple ways to fight for hope, and how they both embody that.

What I mean is that Aerith herself is not aware of his presence, but he's a huge indication, during the dream date, that she is with the "wrong" person in the sense that Cloud cannot give her what she wants (because it's Zack).

Of course he is here for more than this: Zack's episode is here for us to understand how the Lifestream works, and that's he's dead - something that he himself understands. But I will disagree forever if you say he's trying to save the world: he's trying to save Aerith.

 

[GodofWars]

But I will disagree forever if you say he's trying to save the world: he's trying to save Aerith

Haha yeah, I get the feeling. I really feel like they showed us how much Zack is hooked. No hope for that dude outside of his girl.

Hey I wanted to ask how many of you guys went for the platinum for both games.

And also, how do you feel about having all the NPCs of the dream date timeline on another Stamp. I was watching Subtxt's playthrough yesterday, he went on freecam and I wasn't actually aware that you can find the photographer, the hairpin seller and the candy woman all in Zack's timeline in chapter 8, but there's no Stamp to figure out where you are. So I don't really know what to think about it, how to understand it dream date wise. I can't remember if you guys already had that discussion, so, sorry if it was already addressed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's probably best not to think of the Zack segments as happening in different timelines but rather different facets of a dream- specifically Aerith's. She's the one who set the world up- I assume when the party was inside the rift- and she's the one whose mind filled it with people.

As for your statement that Aerith was necessary for CT to get together, I disagree with those specific terms but I can get the general idea, that her prodding helps creates the scenarios that help CT be more forward with each other so their slow burn can actually pick up the pace a little- this is a not uncommon interpretation of her odd behaviors in rebirth, for example.

Anyways, welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around.

 

[GodofWars]

Anyways, welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around.

Thank you ! This forum is a really needed break from all the...intensity of Twitter.

It's probably best not to think of the Zack segments as happening in different timelines but rather different facets of a dream- specifically Aerith's. She's the one who set the world up- I assume when the party was inside the rift- and she's the one whose mind filled it with people.

I call them that way for lack of a better word. I'm thinking it could have been created by Aerith as well as Sephiroth, or even the planet. I admit I have a hard time trying to figure out the use of it, although the fact that it is in the Lifestream is pretty clear, and yes, de facto, the "timeline" word becomes not so much appropriate. But I felt like it's easier to call it that because of the Stamps and the merging you can see in chapter 13.
I really do like the theory that these are the planet's dream too.

I can get the general idea, that her prodding helps creates the scenarios that help CT be more forward with each other so their slow burn can actually pick up the pace a little- this is a not uncommon interpretation of her odd behaviors in rebirth, for example.

I'm glad I could convey what I meant properly ! I think that they all contribute to it, starting with Remake Avalanche team.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you ! This forum is a really needed break from all the...intensity of Twitter.

Oh yes, I'm aware. My anti-fandom over there has been quite angry as of late.

And to think, this subforum used to be considered a toxic hellpit. I wonder what changed... (I ask rhetorically, as if the answer was not already obvious.)

I call them that way for lack of a better word. I'm thinking it could have been created by Aerith as well as Sephiroth, or even the planet. I admit I have a hard time trying to figure out the use of it, although the fact that it is in the Lifestream is pretty clear, and yes, de facto, the "timeline" word becomes not so much appropriate. But I felt like it's easier to call it that because of the Stamps and the merging you can see in chapter 13.
I really do like the theory that these are the planet's dream too.

I tend to call them dream states, because they seem to operate on dream logic- like how actual dreams work, I mean- where things sort of just happen and you can blink from one scenario to another and it'll just sort of make sense in the moment.

I'm glad I could convey what I meant properly ! I think that they all contribute to it, starting with Remake Avalanche team.

Oh yes, the Avalanche gang definitely helped break Cloud out of his shell, especially in remake where they invite him along to their keycard mission.

 

[GodofWars]

Oh yes, I'm aware. My anti-fandom over there has been quite angry as of late.

You know what ? I think I saw something about NPTK today. So I get what you mean. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but the debates around this song are, at least to me, quite over the top. I have a whole opinion about NPTK and Hollow that got me a lot of hate so I'm kind of shy to share it again . Things can escalate way too much, way too quickly.

And to think, this subforum used to be considered a toxic hellpit. I wonder what changed... (I ask rhetorically, as if the answer was not already obvious.)

I've read all the pages of this forum, I've seen how things quieted down little by little. But what has stroke me most is the way people here always tried to use good faith arguments. Although some people still consider this subject on this website highly toxic, it's not so much because of the atmosphere, but because "one side" won. But I like it here, I think all of you made a lot of excellent points over time (thank you again, Squall Of Seed, whoever you are, that article of yours is amazing).

I tend to call them dream states, because they seem to operate on dream logic- like how actual dreams work, I mean- where things sort of just happen and you can blink from one scenario to another and it'll just sort of make sense in the moment.

I really like that. I consider myself one of the lazy ones, I'm willing to admit that although I enjoy the story quite much, I don't have enough background to fully discuss it and I rely sometimes on other's opinion a bit too much to fill the holes of what I couldn't comprehend instead of reading what inspired the devs. So I've watched a ton of theory videos, and none of them I could agree with 100%, like the Aleczandxr one, who says that Aerith is the one who actively manipulates Cloud's mind to blur her own death, making her in my opinion, an antagonist. But this "dreamlike" logic makes a lot of sense to me. It explains why a path disappears when one is chosen, at the very least, in a sensible way.
Also, Jung is one of my pet peeves. Obviously that doesn't help.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You know what ? I think I saw something about NPTK today. So I get what you mean. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but the debates around this song are, at least to me, quite over the top. I have a whole opinion about NPTK and Hollow that got me a lot of hate so I'm kind of shy to share it again . Things can escalate way too much, way too quickly.

That's partly my fault. I dared point out that Nojima wrote the lyrics and he said NPTK was a song about everyone in Aerith's life and that naturally got people very mad at me.

Anyways what are those takes because why not, eh?

I've read all the pages of this forum, I've seen how things quieted down little by little. But what has stroke me most is the way people here always tried to use good faith arguments. Although some people still consider this subject on this website highly toxic, it's not so much because of the atmosphere, but because "one side" won. But I like it here, I think all of you made a lot of excellent points over time

Well thank you kindly.

(thank you again, Squall Of Seed, whoever you are, that article of yours is amazing).

SoS left the site some time ago.

I really like that. I consider myself one of the lazy ones, I'm willing to admit that although I enjoy the story quite much, I don't have enough background to fully discuss it and I rely sometimes on other's opinion a bit too much to fill the holes of what I couldn't comprehend instead of reading what inspired the devs. So I've watched a ton of theory videos, and none of them I could agree with 100%, like the Aleczandxr one, who says that Aerith is the one who actively manipulates Cloud's mind to blur her own death, making her in my opinion, an antagonist. But this "dreamlike" logic makes a lot of sense to me. It explains why a path disappears when one is chosen, at the very least, in a sensible way.
Also, Jung is one of my pet peeves. Obviously that doesn't help.

If Aerith is blurring Cloud's memory of her death, I assume she's doing it to try and protect him because she's worried his mind might snap, but I'm currently waiting for Pt 3 for that particular shoe to drop.

 

[Nancy]

That's partly my fault. I dared point out that Nojima wrote the lyrics and he said NPTK was a song about everyone in Aerith's life and that naturally got people very mad at me.

I don't see how that is your fault when you are just saying what the devs said about the song.

Seems to me they just want to take out their anger bc the song isn't what they think it is

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't see how that is your fault when you are just saying what the devs said about the song.

Seems to me they just want to take out their anger bc the song isn't what they think it is

Oh that's entirely what it is. I was just cracking wise about the whole thing.

 

[null]

I really hope Aerith doesn't tamper with Cloud's mind. The bad guys already have that covered, and this series doesn't need any more visits from the Good Idea Fairy. Please, please just land the plane without playing with grenades in the toilet.

 

[Skilganon]

NPTK seems like an attempt for SE to "have their cake and eat it too". You can look at it like a clerith song, but only somewhat. It's telling that Nojima had to go on Twitter to explain its meaning. If NPTK was "for everyone", that should have been clear from the start. It's awkward that Loren Alred and Uematsu both implied this was a love song from Aerith to Cloud. Were they misinformed? Translation issues?

The melody does play during the dream date between Cloud and Aerith in ch 14. I don't think it's completely off-base to look at it as a clerith-centric song. Which is, to me, a problem.

I've heard that the NPTK performance was added very last minute and some devs were even against it, but Kitase(?) really wanted to do it. The acrimony of the online discourse is the result of the devs lack of intention.

 

[Eerie]

I really like that. I consider myself one of the lazy ones, I'm willing to admit that although I enjoy the story quite much, I don't have enough background to fully discuss it and I rely sometimes on other's opinion a bit too much to fill the holes of what I couldn't comprehend instead of reading what inspired the devs. So I've watched a ton of theory videos, and none of them I could agree with 100%, like the Aleczandxr one, who says that Aerith is the one who actively manipulates Cloud's mind to blur her own death, making her in my opinion, an antagonist. But this "dreamlike" logic makes a lot of sense to me. It explains why a path disappears when one is chosen, at the very least, in a sensible way.

I'm pretty sure that Zack was saved by Remake!Aerith's wish, when she was taunted by Sephiroth with Zack Last Stand's memory. Because she's the only one who saw it, and to me there must be a reason why Sephiroth showed this to Aerith, the only reason being "Zack".
And what did she do? She immediately wished she could save him, them beating Sephiroth there allowing to it (remember the gold shower falling on Midgar? It was the creation of this world), the Planet literally answering her call... and emptying her white materia to use its power.
Then the Planet kept him "alive" in these worlds (every time he does a wrong choice, he keeps reappearing in front of the church, it's his spawn point lol), which makes him understand that he's not alive anymore.
And finally Zack ends in Aerith's church, which is... her promised land. It's the land where every Cetra finds ultimate happiness. This is why the idea of CoLW Aerith finally healing Zack there and saying goodbye to him before joining the Lifestream is both so interesting and heartwarming (yes it's king of implied in JP).

Last I do not think that Aerith manipulates Cloud's mind AT ALL. It's simply Jenova's shenanigans lol. I don't know why people have to make it about Aerith when the reason is just there and we had a couple of really creepy scenes that just show it.

I really hope Aerith doesn't tamper with Cloud's mind. The bad guys already have that covered, and this series doesn't need any more visits from the Good Idea Fairy. Please, please just land the plane without playing with grenades in the toilet.

Yeah no she doesn't, it's just not her power. That is Jenova's. People really don't want to try to use the existing lore - my guess is that Aerith's role in Rebirth wasn't that big aside chapter 13-14, and they're trying to overcompensate. I mean Jenova is right there lol you'd think people go "oh it's Jenova of course!" but no, they give such an awful role to Aerith because they don't want the last convo between Cloud and Aerith actually be a Jenova illusion (which the convo in itself does give away, since Aerith isn't acting like Aerith, but like the Aerith Cloud thinks she is).

NPTK seems like an attempt for SE to "have their cake and eat it too". You can look at it like a clerith song, but only somewhat. It's telling that Nojima had to go on Twitter to explain its meaning. If NPTK was "for everyone", that should have been clear from the start. It's awkward that Loren Alred and Uematsu both implied this was a love song from Aerith to Cloud. Were they misinformed? Translation issues?

Just to say, Nojima didn't go to Twitter, he actually had an interview with Uematsu and Nomura on this topic. And several months prior he said the same thing in his Ultimania, before the TGA trailer was even out.
Loren Alred did a "research on the internet" lol, it's all I can say to be charitable, but we all know that "the internet" is clearly not a good outcome when looking at Aerith's character...

I've heard that the NPTK performance was added very last minute and some devs were even against it, but Kitase(?) really wanted to do it. The acrimony of the online discourse is the result of the devs lack of intention.

I do think it was an error, personally. I think the idea of having the redo of this movie was in general a bad idea, because they have fumbled Aerith's side quests & MSQ and failed to show her caring for everyone as she is supposed to. The way she acts is very interested (romantically or not, give or take, I think at some point it just switches anyway because that's the story) in Cloud, so of course that's how the player is going to interpret her song. Nojima being there to remind us that she is more than that is welcome, but it feels like a too late explanation, as this is barely shown in the game.

 

[GodofWars]

If Aerith is blurring Cloud's memory of her death, I assume she's doing it to try and protect him because she's worried his mind might snap, but I'm currently waiting for Pt 3 for that particular shoe to drop.

Yes, that was the theory. And as it was said later :

I really hope Aerith doesn't tamper with Cloud's mind. The bad guys already have that covered, and this series doesn't need any more visits from the Good Idea Fairy. Please, please just land the plane without playing with grenades in the toilet.

Her doing the same as Sephiroth, even to preserve Cloud, is a villain move. I don't think turning Aerith into a mind controller would be clever storytelling.

SoS left the site some time ago.

Well, if ever one day they see this, I'd want them to know that many years later their work is still appreciated.

NPTK seems like an attempt for SE to "have their cake and eat it too". You can look at it like a clerith song, but only somewhat. It's telling that Nojima had to go on Twitter to explain its meaning. If NPTK was "for everyone", that should have been clear from the start. It's awkward that Loren Alred and Uematsu both implied this was a love song from Aerith to Cloud. Were they misinformed? Translation issues?

The melody does play during the dream date between Cloud and Aerith in ch 14. I don't think it's completely off-base to look at it as a clerith-centric song. Which is, to me, a problem.

I've heard that the NPTK performance was added very last minute and some devs were even against it, but Kitase(?) really wanted to do it. The acrimony of the online discourse is the result of the devs lack of intention.

I agree that one can't really blame it on Clerith to feel the song is a win for them. I also agree with the fact that it is quite problematic. Exactly because, how it was pointed out by @Eerie, Allred went on Youtube and Wikipedia to write her song and understand Aerith, she barely talked with the devs, some of them she was never in contact with, and the result is... Not that much about Aerith. It seems to me that Nojima now is trying to sort this mess out before having really checked everything.

I'm pretty sure that Zack was saved by Remake!Aerith's wish, when she was taunted by Sephiroth with Zack Last Stand's memory. Because she's the only one who saw it, and to me there must be a reason why Sephiroth showed this to Aerith, the only reason being "Zack".
And what did she do? She immediately wished she could save him, them beating Sephiroth there allowing to it (remember the gold shower falling on Midgar? It was the creation of this world), the Planet literally answering her call... and emptying her white materia to use its power.
Then the Planet kept him "alive" in these worlds (every time he does a wrong choice, he keeps reappearing in front of the church, it's his spawn point lol), which makes him understand that he's not alive anymore.
And finally Zack ends in Aerith's church, which is... her promised land. It's the land where every Cetra finds ultimate happiness. This is why the idea of CoLW Aerith finally healing Zack there and saying goodbye to him before joining the Lifestream is both so interesting and heartwarming (yes it's king of implied in JP).

I don't know if she saw him but to me it's clear that at the very least, she felt him there, yes. I'm not so sure about Sephiroth showing her that, since he seems to know so much about the route he's supposed to take and what will happen, and having Zack around is definitely no help to him. Also I was more on the mind that the whispers were emptying the white materia because having Aerith knowing too much could cause a disturbance in the way fate is supposed to continue its course.
But I like your idea about the planet granting Aerith's wish a lot ! And the respawn thing made me chuckle. I think it would be a good way to explain how the lifestream worlds work. And the fact that he keeps appearing in front of the church makes me think about how Zack's final worlds in Crisis Core were for Aerith too, so it would be a nice way to tie this all together.

I do think it was an error, personally. I think the idea of having the redo of this movie was in general a bad idea, because they have fumbled Aerith's side quests & MSQ and failed to show her caring for everyone as she is supposed to. The way she acts is very interested (romantically or not, give or take, I think at some point it just switches anyway because that's the story) in Cloud, so of course that's how the player is going to interpret her song. Nojima being there to remind us that she is more than that is welcome, but it feels like a too late explanation, as this is barely shown in the game.

Yes, I pretty much agree with all of this. This particular moment may be aesthetically beautiful, it's not helping any character, and Aerith even less. I guess they wanted to give her one final tribute with it but Allred made it about Cloud, and it kills the moment, at least for me. I was quite disappointed, because it could have been about so much more.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

About NPTK there's an interview where Loren Allred does say she communicated with the devs about the song. As in the devs gave her the context to help her sing. So I don't think it's just Internet research that helped her prep. However one thing I noticed is it's not just Allred that sees the song that way as to be about specifically Cloud and Aerith but Uematsu himself calls it "a love song". And the site for the song featured Cloud and Aerith.

Let's cut out Loren for a second. Uematsu himself had that impression it was a love song and apparently so did the design team that made the website.

So Loren being a bit of an outsider, let's say for arguments sake "Oh she wasn't as well informed." Even though that's strange to me the writer working with her wouldn't give her guidance? Let's put that aside.

But Uematsu? The composer? If Nojima 's vision for his song was clearly communicated why would the composer also be saying something different from the writer? It should be a project where all parties Should be aware of what they're working on. Especially before giving an interview.

So something tells me the dev team either didn't fully discuss their visions for the song and thought they were on the same page but weren't, maybe there was lack of communication. That might explain it but it makes all parties seem like bad communicators and I don't think that's the case.
Or
Nojima did communicate with Uematsu at least as they must have worked together but as he said "there's nothing wrong with love songs" he was more lenient about an open interpretation of it but then later either anticipated the discourse or was told people took it as a literal CA win and felt he had to clarify. This is just me speculating however. It can be many things.

However

Nojima clarifying is what I think we should focus on and all the answer we need. The rest is not something any of us can know and is just assumptions and it's not fair to the parties that were actually there.

I think when a writer clarifies something that's your answer. You don't need anything else. It's about everyone because he said so. He wrote it. Whatever a creator says about their own work has to be fact. But also there's "nothing wrong with love songs" is also part of the answer and shows me Uematsu and apparently the design team and other devs weren't just being contradictory or willingly going against the creator or being strangely incompetent either and somehow a love song interpretation or at least a focus on Cloud wasn't strongly opposed either.

I usually go with the more charitable interpretation of events. I'm choosing to think that this project was worked on with intention and teamwork and not akin to a group of high schoolers not talking to each other as they work on a final project the night before and not discussing it. That's my take.

But again we have no idea we only can go with what Nojima said. And should take that answer.

Edit: clarified

Tldr: To avoid any bad faith arguments or narratives about the parties involved we should just stick with what we know. Because a clarifying statement was made by the creator himself we should focus on that. But let's also not assume other people working on the project were incompetent either.
What the creator said is what matters most and discourse beyond that is really moot as we have no way of knowing what went on.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Her doing the same as Sephiroth, even to preserve Cloud, is a villain move. I don't think turning Aerith into a mind controller would be clever storytelling.

My current hypothesis is that it's Jenova/ Seph fucking with him in the guise of Aerith,

I agree that one can't really blame it on Clerith to feel the song is a win for them. I also agree with the fact that it is quite problematic. Exactly because, how it was pointed out by @Eerie, Allred went on Youtube and Wikipedia to write her song and understand Aerith, she barely talked with the devs, some of them she was never in contact with, and the result is... Not that much about Aerith. It seems to me that Nojima now is trying to sort this mess out before having really checked everything.

Loren didn't write it. Nojima wrote the lyrics and someone else at SE did the translation IIRC. Loren only sang the song.

And I don't think anyone is denying it's a love song, but it's not a song from A to C, but from A to everyone and encompassing all kinds of love. The love between her and Elmyra, and Zack, and Cloud and Tifa and Barret and even randoms like Madame M, Choco Sam and Chadley, which is why they all appear during the song as well.

 

[GodofWars]

My current hypothesis is that it's Jenova/ Seph fucking with him in the guise of Aerith

I can't really decide if it's her or not. At least at the very end. When they're all around the Lake, then yes, I agree it just cannot be her, everything's way too ominous

Loren didn't write it. Nojima wrote the lyrics and someone else at SE did the translation IIRC. Loren only sang the song.

And I don't think anyone is denying it's a love song, but it's not a song from A to C, but from A to everyone and encompassing all kinds of love. The love between her and Elmyra, and Zack, and Cloud and Tifa and Barret and even randoms like Madame M, Choco Sam and Chadley, which is why they all appear during the song as well.

Perfect example of me saying I rely on random information instead of looking for myself, and getting it wrong in the process (it happens often).
My main point was that the war around this song makes sense because event though you have the author of it spelling out for you the meaning of the song, it still feels like it's more directed towards one instead of all. I'm not trying to make a bad faith argument, just saying that both are perfectly understandable.

Tldr: To avoid any bad faith arguments or narratives about the parties involved we should just stick with what we know. Because a clarifying statement was made by the creator himself we should focus on that. But let's also not assume other people working on the project were incompetent either.
What the creator said is what matters most and discourse beyond that is really moot as we have no way of knowing what went on.

You are absolutely right, and that wasn't what I was trying to imply, but that because of the duality of the meaning of the song, despite what Nojima has said about it, or maybe because of what he said, the situation is now extremely messy. To be very plain, I think theme songs are just that. They don't represent an entire ship, nor should they be taken at face value. For me it's mostly about a feeling, a mood, an ambiance being set up and that's that. Which is also why this song doesn't work so well for me. Maybe it has more to do with personal tastes and less with real critical thinking, and I would be completely ok to recognize this. Hollow really felt right to me, as opposed to NPTK, not only because of the overall direction of the song, but also because of how it was brought out. But I guess if you're going to go all out on this, the gold Saucer would indeed be where and when.

 

[null]

To me, NPTK sounds like a textbook love song addressed to one person. Or at least the English version does. Nojima's explanation makes sense, but at the same time, it's like a Pearl Jam song lol. Without context, you wouldn't guess the real meaning of the lyrics if they didn't tell you.

Not the first time Nojima's had to say "actually..." afterward either. It happens. Like the legendary ambiguous ending to FFVII apparently wasn't originally intended to be so ambiguous. Whoops.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To me, NPTK sounds like a textbook love song addressed to one person. Or at least the English version does. Nojima's explanation makes sense, but at the same time, it's like a Pearl Jam song lol. Without context, you wouldn't guess the real meaning of the lyrics if they didn't tell you.

Not the first time Nojima's had to say "actually..." afterward either. It happens. Like the legendary ambiguous ending to FFVII apparently wasn't originally intended to be so ambiguous. Whoops.

I've seen the lyrics he wrote in JP and they are different from the EN lyrics in some small and crucial ways, like there was no mention of cobblestones at all, things were vaguer in general, etc.

 

[Eerie]

I don't know if she saw him but to me it's clear that at the very least, she felt him there, yes. I'm not so sure about Sephiroth showing her that, since he seems to know so much about the route he's supposed to take and what will happen, and having Zack around is definitely no help to him.

Oh yeah, we saw at the end of the memory the movement from Sephiroth smiling to Aerith - she definitely was the target for the Last Stand's memory.

Like this is right after the Last Stand. And she was the focus, I didn't do free cam or anything like that.

Also I was more on the mind that the whispers were emptying the white materia because having Aerith knowing too much could cause a disturbance in the way fate is supposed to continue its course.

How? The white materia is literally needed to save the world. They didn't empty shit, its power was used somewhere else - that has to be to save Zack in a way.

Nojima clarifying is what I think we should focus on and all the answer we need.

I agree with that. I think he saw it as a love song himself, but for everyone.

My current hypothesis is that it's Jenova/ Seph fucking with him in the guise of Aerith,

I mean, in chapter 13, right towards the end:

About Jenova: "A deceiver that stole the faces of the dead", I am not sure how you can not take the hint, because we know Jenova can take many forms (including the living), so the hint is clearly there to say "hey look at it, but soon it will be shown" lol.

like there was no mention of cobblestones at all

It doesn't really matter because she met Elmyra on a cobblestone street too lol.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Please forgive my replying this way as my multi quote thing isn't working great. I can get one quote in but not multiple like you all. I'm not on computer so maybe that's why.

@Ryushikaze Hm. I don't think language versions make much difference here. Midgar Blues is just as vague in Japanese. No mention of true love etc. The meaning doesn't change however. And I don't think any translation should change how we view a song. It's still the same song. With the same message. Japanese songs are always vague by default anyway.

@null I agree and I just think it makes a lot of sense that if you tell your team you're writing a love song and you agree it's a ballad there's implications that come with that is going to give them a specific impression of said song. They're going to think you mean a romantic song.

@GodofWars I understand your meaning better now. And I absolutely agree with your interpretation of theme songs. That's how I see them too. Intention in music writing is always a lot less vague and tangible than the meaning we assign it.

I agree for the most part on your take about the discourse surrounding this being messy. I don't think Nojima anticipated it or maybe he didn't mind at first if people saw it that way. But then the response of the audience or maybe even the description of love song caused obvious confusion he had to clear up prompted an answer.

As for the presentation of it I kinda agree, as a CA personally I'm a bit offended because not just the interview, even the website itself is leaning into the impression it's a love song of two people thing while being told I'm not allowed to view it as romantic at the same time. Especially if the intention is to see it as about everyone. That's not what was sold. Feeling baited is an understatement.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I mean, in chapter 13, right towards the end:

About Jenova: "A deceiver that stole the faces of the dead", I am not sure how you can not take the hint, because we know Jenova can take many forms (including the living), so the hint is clearly there to say "hey look at it, but soon it will be shown" lol.

I mean that's a large part of why I have that hypothesis, yes.

It doesn't really matter because she met Elmyra on a cobblestone street too lol.

True enough, yes.

@Ryushikaze Hm. I don't think language versions make much difference here. Midgar Blues is just as vague in Japanese. No mention of true love etc. The meaning doesn't change however. And I don't think any translation should change how we view a song. It's still the same song. With the same message. Japanese songs are always vague by default anyway.

My point was just that the things that people pointed to to allege it was specifically about Cloud or anyone else are less overt in the JP, and Nojima - a man who let's be honest is very fond of setting up expectations with a rug pull - could very well have baited people, but he's also been very consistent about his meaning of the lyrics, both when asked for the Ultimania and in the interview with Uematsu and Nomura from after the youtube video with Loren.

And that's without getting into the deliberate parallels to Greatest Showman which was cited as an influence for the whole sequence.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

My point was just that the things that people pointed to to allege it was specifically about Cloud or anyone else are less overt in the JP, and Nojima - a man who let's be honest is very fond of setting up expectations with a rug pull - could very well have baited people, but he's also been very consistent about his meaning of the lyrics, both when asked for the Ultimania and in the interview with Uematsu and Nomura from after the youtube video with Loren.

And that's without getting into the deliberate parallels to Greatest Showman which was cited as an influence for the whole sequence.

I see. I do believe Nojima about his intentions. When looking at everything else plus his statement I can see it.

However when calling something a love song ballad etc. as I said there's implications so maybe there was some intentional misdirection there.

Also I have to say I'm especially confused about the parallels to Greatest Showman. He's saying that the song is about everyone. I believe him. But isn't The Greatest Showman sequence they used about the singer falling in love with a man who has another love? So the singer would be singing to that man specifically in that sequence right? Isn't that a huge discrepancy from "singing about everyone."?

Maybe this is why Loren Allred who sang Never Enough got the impression it was a romantic song to a guy. And I mean can we blame her?

 

[Skilganon]

One of the theories I often see among the fandom is that Jenova is responsible for Cloud's false persona, as well as the cover up of Zack and Aerith's deaths. I disagree.

While there may be some evidence of this, I think it's safe to say this is inconsistent given Cloud's own monologue in the OG after the LSS. He says that he constructed this persona from his own ideals.

But on a deeper level, I think it makes more sense psychologically and narratively that Cloud himself creates these illusions as a defense mechanism. This is his main character flaw, as has been demonstrated numerous times. Jenova would want Cloud to see the truth, to be broken by his friends' deaths. She would want Cloud to ruminate on his failures and become a psychological wreck like the other reunion clones. This explains why Cloud breaks free from Jenova's control when he regains his memories and accepts the past. He's no longer ashamed of his failures.

Jenova doesn't have any reason to make Cloud believe he is Zack, or cover up Aerith's death, her interests are in fact, the opposite. Sephiroth even goes further at the Northern Crater, suggesting a lie that's actually worse than the reality. I know there may be evidence to back up these claims, I just think my own interpretation of this is more satisfying to me.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

One of the theories I often see among the fandom is that Jenova is responsible for Cloud's false persona, as well as the cover up of Zack and Aerith's deaths. I disagree.

While there may be some evidence of this, I think it's safe to say this is inconsistent given Cloud's own monologue in the OG after the LSS. He says that he constructed this persona from his own ideals.

But on a deeper level, I think it makes more sense psychologically and narratively that Cloud himself creates these illusions as a defense mechanism. This is his main character flaw, as has been demonstrated numerous times. Jenova would want Cloud to see the truth, to be broken by his friends' deaths. She would want Cloud to ruminate on his failures and become a psychological wreck like the other reunion clones. This explains why Cloud breaks free from Jenova's control when he regains his memories and accepts the past. He's no longer ashamed of his failures.

Jenova doesn't have any reason to make Cloud believe he is Zack, or cover up Aerith's death, her interests are in fact, the opposite. Sephiroth even goes further at the Northern Crater, suggesting a lie that's actually worse than the reality. I know there may be evidence to back up these claims, I just think my own interpretation of this is more satisfying to me.

I agree with all of this. I don't think the Aerith Cloud sees is actually there. She's repeating the same exact things she's said in the past.

The only part I question myself on this is when she says goodbye. And Red sensing her apparently. It does seem like her in those parts.

But the one next to the lake I think is definitely in his mind.

I interpreted that scene as this is what's Cloud's mind is doing to keep himself together after her death. It's a coping mechanism to deal with trauma. Jenova cells do make it easier for illusions to seem real. But I don't think Jenova or Sephiroth is going out of the way to orchestrate the illusion or anything. Why would they care if Cloud breaks? Better for them.

But Cloud's mind to protect itself would definitely come up with a lie. I think this makes a lot of sense and yes it matches the fact he's a master of his own "illusionary world".