SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Skilganon]

The interesting thing is, you don't need Jenova or timelines to explain why Cloud can see Aerith. In Traces of Two Pasts, it describes how Cetra are able to maintain their will in the Lifestream as a spirit for some limited amount of time before they fade away completely. Aerith was able to talke to Ifalna for at least a few weeks after her death. Cloud could simply be seeing Aerith's spirit from the lifestream in the same way young Aerith saw her mother.

Would this count as a manipulation? I don't really see it that way. One question I have is why Cloud seems more vulnerable here than he was in the OG. He didn't block out Aerith's death originally, so what changed?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I see. I do believe Nojima about his intentions. When looking at everything else plus his statement I can see it.

However when calling something a love song ballad etc. as I said there's implications so maybe there was some intentional misdirection there.

Also I have to say I'm especially confused about the parallels to Greatest Showman. He's saying that the song is about everyone. I believe him. But isn't The Greatest Showman sequence they used about the singer falling in love with a man who has another love? So the singer would be singing to that man specifically in that sequence right? Isn't that a huge discrepancy from "singing about everyone."?

So Never Enough isn't exactly a love song and it's not exactly sung specifically to Barnum. It's kind of a lament, in that it's about how all the fame and riches and accolades mean nothing without love and while Lind IS falling in love with Barnum, the song causes HIM and Legally Distinct Bailey to realize what is important to them: re romance and for Barnum to prioritize his wife and Legally Distinct Bailey to be willing to openly romance Zendaya despite their differing social stations and ethnicities.
There are specific shots in the NPTK sequence that are almost shot for shot homages to the Never Enough sequence in Greatest Showman - I almost shorthanded to GS but Gold Saucer - including the part when Cloud takes Tifa's hand mirroring Not-Bailey gripping Zendaya's.

Maybe this is why Loren Allred who sang Never Enough got the impression it was a romantic song to a guy. And I mean can we blame her?

In that both songs are a woman pouring her heart out yeah, I can see the confusion, but one seems to be "It means nothing without love" and the other is "All this love I give to everyone who has given it to me"

As for Jenova and the persona and the memory edits... It's never JUST Jenova, Cloud uses Jenova to make his persona, and he does block out Zack's death on his own to preserve that persona, but there's the question for example of why he suddenly remembers Zack... but misremembers how he died. That's why people think Sephiroth might be gaslighting him with memory edits just as he gaslights Cloud about things like Tifa being having no scar and being a fake.
To that specific end I could see Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's perception of the death sequence to rug pull him with it later, like he did in the trials, because I am entirely 100% convinced he somehow managed to get Cloud and Tifa's trials swapped, both because he used the trial to gaslight Cloud not feeling much for a sequence that seems much more tailored to Tifa's trauma, while Tifa is stuck back at Nibelheim but at a moment where Cloud is being traumatized, not her. There's also the reunion Lily on her mailbox, which also appeared in the Ch2 flashback but NOT in the ch9 lifestream depiction of her house.

Anyways, TL;DR Sephiroth is a gaslighty motherfucker and fucking with Cloud's perception is something he's been doing for two games now.

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think it's likely Sephiroth swapped Cloud and Tifa's trials.

Cloud's trial starts in Mako Reactor 1, something Tifa didn't experience. She also didn't experience Biggs' death which is a big part of that trial. Tifa's trial ends with her finding the corpse of her father in the Nibelheim reactor, something Cloud didn't experience. I think the reason C and T show up in each other's trials is because they are just linked that way subconsciously.

 

[null]

I can't accept that the Aerith saying goodbye in that beautiful ending scene is Jenova, or Cloud's delusion. That's the worst possible way to send her off. But at the same time, there's nothing separating that Aerith from the one by the pool. "I'll see you off." With that sour note playing, and her hair mysteriously fixed, and acting like nothing happened, and feeling like everything's wrong.

The two Aeriths seem logically connected, but the way they're presented feels... incompatible. Like, I can either feel sad or creeped out, but both at once is weird and doesn't really work.

The whole ending is like that. I keep asking myself: which Aerith am I looking at right now? The one who was just killed? The one who came strutting out to totally kick her murderer's butt? A hallucination? An alien? A corpse? The problem is, they all belong in very different emotional spaces. Combining them leads to an incoherent distracting mess.

What's frustrating is there's some real genius mixed in there. Cloud's brain hiding his own meltdown was peak cinema. And in general, I'm on board with recontexualizing Cloud as the true victim of Aerith's death while she's the one doing the protecting. If they're not going to burn Advent Children to the ground, the next best thing is fixing the gaping thematic plot holes instead of duct taping OTWTAS over them.

But goddamn, that was the worst scene to convert into a disposable cliffhanger. You want to keep people talking? Make trailers. That's where the engagement bait belongs.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think it's likely Sephiroth swapped Cloud and Tifa's trials.

Cloud's trial starts in Mako Reactor 1, something Tifa didn't experience. She also didn't experience Biggs' death which is a big part of that trial. Tifa's trial ends with her finding the corpse of her father in the Nibelheim reactor, something Cloud didn't experience. I think the reason C and T show up in each other's trials is because they are just linked that way subconsciously.

Cloud absolutely would have seen Brian running up the hill out of town towards the reactor and seen his body in the reactor as he approached.
As for the reactor and Biggs, yes, it's a reactor and yes, it's Biggs, but A: Biggs didn't die in a reactor, and Cloud didn't see any exploded reactor either, and B: Biggs and Jesse are much closer to Tifa than Cloud. Sephiroth's obviously hijacked the trial, he makes Biggs' body vanish, what's to say he didn't put it there in the first place.

Even with Biggs there, the theme of the trial could be "All these deaths are on your hands, these innocents, your friends" something Tifa has expressed doubts and remorse over previously.

I mean it could just be because they're linked subconsciously, but we know Sephy's up to his usual bullshit regardless.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think Nojima anticipated it or maybe he didn't mind at first if people saw it that way. But then the response of the audience or maybe even the description of love song caused obvious confusion he had to clear up prompted an answer.

It is to note that the first Ultimania also talked about this and we know interviews are made months ahead... which was before the TGA trailer, so even before fans knew about this.

However when calling something a love song ballad etc. as I said there's implications so maybe there was some intentional misdirection there.

This is true however when you play the game as CT, it's impossible to see it as a love ballad, as clearly they look very happy, in love and hold hands together while she sings in front of them. Imagine if that was a love song for Cloud, I refuse to see it that way - it would be the most awful rejection.

One of the theories I often see among the fandom is that Jenova is responsible for Cloud's false persona, as well as the cover up of Zack and Aerith's deaths. I disagree.

While there may be some evidence of this, I think it's safe to say this is inconsistent given Cloud's own monologue in the OG after the LSS. He says that he constructed this persona from his own ideals.

But on a deeper level, I think it makes more sense psychologically and narratively that Cloud himself creates these illusions as a defense mechanism. This is his main character flaw, as has been demonstrated numerous times. Jenova would want Cloud to see the truth, to be broken by his friends' deaths. She would want Cloud to ruminate on his failures and become a psychological wreck like the other reunion clones. This explains why Cloud breaks free from Jenova's control when he regains his memories and accepts the past. He's no longer ashamed of his failures.

Jenova doesn't have any reason to make Cloud believe he is Zack, or cover up Aerith's death, her interests are in fact, the opposite. Sephiroth even goes further at the Northern Crater, suggesting a lie that's actually worse than the reality. I know there may be evidence to back up these claims, I just think my own interpretation of this is more satisfying to me.

Jenova imprinted Zack's memories onto Cloud when Zack died. Then when he saw Tifa at the train station, Cloud awoke from his mako poisoning state and made up his SOLDIER life thanks to:

• Cloud's strong desire to be seen as a hero to Tifa,
• the memories Jenova had imprinted onto him prior,
• the reading of Tifa's memories by Jenova, which allowed Jenova to push that illusion.

We then see her temper with several Cloud memories alongside Remake and Rebirth. We know this is how she manipulated the Cetras, she took the form of people who were dear to them.

Yes, psychologically, Cloud is weak, and had his dreams shattered, and so she took advantage of that. His strong desire to be a hero to Tifa. His strong desire to save Aerith. His strong desire to forget he had already failed his best friend. But it's not ONLY Cloud's doing there, Jenova also allows also all of this to feel really tangible, real. Cloud takes the whole blame, but Jenova was also manoeuvering in his own head, making it even more difficult for him to set free of the illusions he created.

And we see Cloud having that speech too in Rebirth (we don't hear it). That is what is happening outside of Jenova's shenannigans. He just doesn't see it at all in his head. He really is a puppet.

That's why we see the crask in the sky at the end: because Cloud has built his own world (SOLDIER Cloud) and it's soon going to shatter.
The intention for Sephiroth and Jenova is not only that he'd be a normal clone, but to break him in a way he won't be able to come back ever. Because he's done a major crime: he killed Sephiroth. That's why he is special to them and that's why Sephiroth is obsessed with him: just a normal grunt killing the most powerful SOLDIER? Ah! He's going to pay dearly for that!

I agree with all of this. I don't think the Aerith Cloud sees is actually there. She's repeating the same exact things she's said in the past.

The only part I question myself on this is when she says goodbye. And Red sensing her apparently. It does seem like her in those parts.

But the one next to the lake I think is definitely in his mind.

I interpreted that scene as this is what's Cloud's mind is doing to keep himself together after her death. It's a coping mechanism to deal with trauma. Jenova cells do make it easier for illusions to seem real. But I don't think Jenova or Sephiroth is going out of the way to orchestrate the illusion or anything. Why would they care if Cloud breaks? Better for them.

But Cloud's mind to protect itself would definitely come up with a lie. I think this makes a lot of sense and yes it matches the fact he's a master of his own "illusionary world".

She doesn't exactly say all the things she said in the past; one of the biggest thing, IMHO, that deviates, is how she wants Cloud to kill Sephiroth instead of taking care of himself. To me, it shows an Aerith Cloud imagines based on how he thinks Aerith is (which is wrong), rather than how she actually was. Which is exactly what young Sephiroth said in EC to Jenova cosplaying Lucrecia: "you're how I always imagined you to be", I mean, OUCH. Touché.

To that specific end I could see Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's perception of the death sequence to rug pull him with it later, like he did in the trials, because I am entirely 100% convinced he somehow managed to get Cloud and Tifa's trials swapped, both because he used the trial to gaslight Cloud not feeling much for a sequence that seems much more tailored to Tifa's trauma, while Tifa is stuck back at Nibelheim but at a moment where Cloud is being traumatized, not her. There's also the reunion Lily on her mailbox, which also appeared in the Ch2 flashback but NOT in the ch9 lifestream depiction of her house.

I disagree with this, to me it's very clear that they were not reversed. But an unintended twist is that this trial begins in Cloud's world (yeah, this is real Cloud there!); I think that's because she saw his memories of that day in chapter 9 so that she could connect to his world, and their desire to meet again. That and also her world is connected to his, which allows her to hop onto her own memory when she enters the reactor (yes, we see her turning back and she can't see Nibelheim anymore because those two worlds are different). You should read my Tifa theory in the general Rebirth area xD

Edit: it's here https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/theorycraft-tifa-and-the-lifestream-scenes.23802/

I can't accept that the Aerith saying goodbye in that beautiful ending scene is Jenova, or Cloud's delusion. That's the worst possible way to send her off. But at the same time, there's nothing separating that Aerith from the one by the pool. "I'll see you off." With that sour note playing, and her hair mysteriously fixed, and acting like nothing happened, and feeling like everything's wrong.

It's definitely a mix of Jenova and real Aerith. The maths is simple: Cloud cannot see the dead unless he's in the Lifestream. So when he sees Aerith, it's the wrong Aerith, it's Jenova cosplaying as Aerith. When he does not look, it's the real Aerith going around.

It really is that simple.

 

[null]

One question I have is why Cloud seems more vulnerable here than he was in the OG. He didn't block out Aerith's death originally, so what changed?

Here's what I think: in OG, Cloud went snowboarding after Aerith's death. Outside of the death scene itself, Aerith wasn't mentioned often and Cloud wasn't shaken to his core over it (or Zack's death, which was optional to watch). The developers didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal.

The movie made it into a big deal. And many fans were loudly underwhelmed with the explanation they were given.

For Remake, they (Nojima and Nomura) have a stated goal of correcting "distortions in perception" with the introduction of Compilation entries and and "converging [the differences] into one". Cloud being established as super fragile over the deaths of his loved ones prior to AC is a far more convincing reason for his relapse than the one the movie gives.

It's definitely a mix of Jenova and real Aerith. The maths is simple: Cloud cannot see the dead unless he's in the Lifestream. So when he sees Aerith, it's the wrong Aerith, it's Jenova cosplaying as Aerith. When he does not look, it's the real Aerith going around.

It really is that simple.

I'm sure they're going for something clever like that. To me, it just distracts from the part that really matters. They did such a beautiful job with her death. I'd rather they left the Jenova mind games for early part 3 and let the players grieve in the moment.

 

[Eerie]

Here's what I think: in OG, Cloud went snowboarding after Aerith's death. Outside of the death scene itself, Aerith wasn't mentioned often and Cloud wasn't shaken to his core over it (or Zack's death, which was optional to watch). The developers didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal.

The movie made it into a big deal. And many fans were loudly underwhelmed with the explanation they were given.

For Remake, they (Nojima and Nomura) have a stated goal of correcting "distortions in perception" with the introduction of Compilation entries and and "converging [the differences] into one". Cloud being established as super fragile over the deaths of his loved ones prior to AC is a far more convincing reason for his relapse than the one the movie gives.

Well they went snowboarding because they were fleeing Icicle village, not because it was fun (although it was a fun minigame). Her death was mentioned when real Cloud came back, but it's true that Cloud did not grieve Aerith (which is shown in AC/C as well as CoT), and that's what's giving him multi layers of guilt towards her, alongside not being able to protect her.

I'm sure they're going for something clever like that. To me, it just distracts from the part that really matters. They did such a beautiful job with her death. I'd rather they left the Jenova mind games for early part 3 and let the players grieve in the moment.

I think I disagree, to me her death was better in the OG. But this time, I'll concede, they went for the Cloud angle rather than the Aerith angle, which makes her death about his mental health and not about herself - which is what I really think is missing. I guess we're going to see what truly happened in next game, but yeah, so far my criticism is that. They also have acknowledged that they went for the Cloud angle, which explains the Jenova meddling.

 

[null]

Oh, definitely agree her death was handled way better in OG. The new scenes that reflect OG are the best ones imho.

Yeah maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll add the uncensored version to the Lifestream scene. Tifa might want to sort that scene for herself while she’s in there (she looked pretty horrified at something Cloud censored out).

 

[GodofWars]

I’m hopeful that Part 3 will deliver the real emotional payoff, the kind that leaves you completely gutted. But I’ll admit, I have some doubts. With all the new characters and plot threads introduced, and with Rebirth leaving so many loose ends untied, it feels like they’ve only created more room for speculation. I’m not sure one game will be enough to wrap everything up in a satisfying way.


When I first finished Rebirth, I wasn’t heartbroken, I was just confused, borderline angry. The long goodbyes felt empty, Aerith’s “here but not here” moments pulled me out of the scene instead of into it, and I kept thinking "This is too much". I’ve since made my peace with the way they chose to depict the ending, but I still think it would have landed far harder if it had happened at the Northern Crater, and this has already been said here. Right now, the constant “does she live or die?” debates feel like they’re taking attention away from Cloud’s journey. I love Aerith, but her fate shouldn’t overshadow the emotional low point we haven’t even reached yet.

So I do agree that OG was better in that regard. It delivered a raw, merciless depiction, it was brutal and my shock was absolute.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll add the uncensored version to the Lifestream scene. Tifa might want to sort that scene for herself while she’s in there (she looked pretty horrified at something Cloud censored out).

I disagree, the LSS is a love confession scene, so if I look at the OG, it contained scenes only pertaining to Cloud and Tifa: their past memories as well as the knot of the story: the Nibelheim incident. I expect both scenes to get developped (I really want a whole rerun of the Nibelheim event with the real story!), but this is a triomphant part of Cloud's arc, the deaths of his friends have no place there.

Zack's death scene was later in game, in Nibelheim's mansion, and I expect Aerith's death scene to take place when we return to the City where she was buried.

Right now, the constant “does she live or die?” debates feel like they’re taking attention away from Cloud’s journey.

I am really hoping they won't go there for the PR of p3, I think that the devs were really clear in their interviews post-Rebirth that she was gone. And p3 PR will have to focus on Cloud's identity troubles because that's the huge thing that's literally starting with p3: we are going to lose Cloud pretty fast, compared to the length of the game. I do expect a lot of Cloud, Tifa, and CT PR actually because that's the story ahead of us, amongst a lot of really cool things to PR: the huge materia quest, the Highwind, the Weapons... man so much COOL STUFF ahead with every character's arc closing? Yeah they have to LAND this. HARD.

 

[GodofWars]

I am really hoping they won't go there for the PR of p3, I think that the devs were really clear in their interviews post-Rebirth that she was gone.

If this is what they choose to do at the detriment of Cloud then I'm pretty sure this is going to backfire really hard. And that is not in their interest at all.

a lot of really cool things to PR: the huge materia quest, the Highwind, the Weapons... man so much COOL STUFF ahead with every character's arc closing? Yeah they have to LAND this. HARD.

100% agreed (I'm super hyped for Wutai). Focusing only on one aspect of the game would be a very bad move, especially since the average player, including me, is in anticipation of all of it. Also I feel like they got their wish, people have been talking about Aerith's death/not death for a year now, it's time to move on to other subjects.

 

[Eerie]

Wutai scares me, it can be big, or a big pschhtttttt as we say in France (aka a big nothingburger). I hope it's the former, but I will wait to see what it is. And they also have to PR it properly too!

Also. BIG FCKING METEOR IN THE SKY.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I disagree with this, to me it's very clear that they were not reversed. But an unintended twist is that this trial begins in Cloud's world (yeah, this is real Cloud there!); I think that's because she saw his memories of that day in chapter 9 so that she could connect to his world, and their desire to meet again. That and also her world is connected to his, which allows her to hop onto her own memory when she enters the reactor (yes, we see her turning back and she can't see Nibelheim anymore because those two worlds are different). You should read my Tifa theory in the general Rebirth area xD

Yeah, it's definitely Cloud's world at the start of Tifa's trial, and I'd assume some of Tifa's got mixed in with Cloud's. Switched is the wrong word. Mixed together would be better, but then again their entire stories are entertwined.

Edit: it's here https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/theorycraft-tifa-and-the-lifestream-scenes.23802/

To the point about the flower being Cloud's desire manifest, we know it's not purely assett reuse because they built another model of her house without the flower specifically for Ch9. It's there meaningfully. It's what first twigged me to their trials being interlinked in some way.

Yeah maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll add the uncensored version to the Lifestream scene. Tifa might want to sort that scene for herself while she’s in there (she looked pretty horrified at something Cloud censored out).

It makes so much more sense to place the real version of her death at the point where we have to go see it anyways, the return trip to the Ancient City with Bugenhagen.

 

[Eerie]

Tifa's trial completes the LSS we will see in p3: in her Gongaga LS scene, she saw Cloud's memories (as well as hers about the promise, but it was Cloud's memories for the bridge and near her house since she has no memory of those, the LS showed her the closest to hers), and in her trial she saw the promise being hinted at, as well as the Nibelheim event through Cloud's memories: and we had the big event already being spoiled, which means that not only they couldn't wait to get their hands on it, but also that it's going to be really reimagined, especially since some lines have also been reused in Remake like when Tifa tells him that she looked in the newspapers for his name to show up. Not to mention the memory that proves that Cloud is Cloud is known too...

So I think the LSS is really going to be a CT fest tbh. To me it makes sense, since it's the big love confession, to have an effective "I love you" from Cloud, as well as a kiss. And I may be wrong, but I feel they're going to expand on Cloud's hopes (his desire to be special to Tifa), his feelings (both of failure and for Tifa)... well I think what was hinted at really looks supere cool and great for my shipper ass lol.

 

[Skilganon]

When I think of all the cutscenes that will be in part 3: The emergence of the Weapons, Northern Crater, Mideel and the Lifestream Sequence, Cid's backstory, Yuffie's backstory, Vincent and Lucrecia, Gast and Ifalna, Cloud and Zack, true Nibelheim incident, etc. etc.

And then the new stuff: Whatever Aerith is doing in the alternate world, New Sephiroth shenanigans, whatever the ending is going to be, possible epilogue.

It just seems like an inordinately huge project with enough cutscenes to fill multiple movies. It's a consequence of how plot-heavy discs 2 and 3 of the original were. I just hope it doesn't bankrupt SE.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

So Never Enough isn't exactly a love song and it's not exactly sung specifically to Barnum. It's kind of a lament, in that it's about how all the fame and riches and accolades mean nothing without love and while Lind IS falling in love with Barnum, the song causes HIM and Legally Distinct Bailey to realize what is important to them: re romance and for Barnum to prioritize his wife and Legally Distinct Bailey to be willing to openly romance Zendaya despite their differing social stations and ethnicities.
There are specific shots in the NPTK sequence that are almost shot for shot homages to the Never Enough sequence in Greatest Showman - I almost shorthanded to GS but Gold Saucer - including the part when Cloud takes Tifa's hand mirroring Not-Bailey gripping Zendaya's.


In that both songs are a woman pouring her heart out yeah, I can see the confusion, but one seems to be "It means nothing without love" and the other is "All this love I give to everyone who has given it to me"

As for Jenova and the persona and the memory edits... It's never JUST Jenova, Cloud uses Jenova to make his persona, and he does block out Zack's death on his own to preserve that persona, but there's the question for example of why he suddenly remembers Zack... but misremembers how he died. That's why people think Sephiroth might be gaslighting him with memory edits just as he gaslights Cloud about things like Tifa being having no scar and being a fake.
To that specific end I could see Sephiroth manipulating Cloud's perception of the death sequence to rug pull him with it later, like he did in the trials, because I am entirely 100% convinced he somehow managed to get Cloud and Tifa's trials swapped, both because he used the trial to gaslight Cloud not feeling much for a sequence that seems much more tailored to Tifa's trauma, while Tifa is stuck back at Nibelheim but at a moment where Cloud is being traumatized, not her. There's also the reunion Lily on her mailbox, which also appeared in the Ch2 flashback but NOT in the ch9 lifestream depiction of her house.

Anyways, TL;DR Sephiroth is a gaslighty motherfucker and fucking with Cloud's perception is something he's been doing for two games now.

Interesting. Thank you for explaining that. The Never Enough scene I admit is very beautiful and cool. And I guess the visuals of it match a big performance. But besides the visuals I researched more about it it still doesn't seem to fit the idea to singing about "everyone you love" to do it this way. From Lind's story specifically seems about having desires unfulfilled. And the desire of this singer is her love for that married man and having her dreams come true. Apparently people also view this as her confessing that. From P.T.'s point of view it's about how his successes never are enough and he always wants more but I guess he realizes that his wife is being left out due to this.

None of this... seems to match what Aerith is singing about. Her story, her personality...anything. Especially if she's singing about her love for everyone.

So I'm thinking they liked the performance aspect of it. Which I don't blame them it's a beautiful song and scene. But the topics and contexts especially the character Lind and Aerith and their situation but just even the subject matter of the song differ greatly.

I guess what bothers me about it Nojima's "let's sing about everyone." message I can kinda see in the scene itself where that comes from but if you compare it to the Greatest Showman it's very hard to see that's what he was going for.

Especially when you pair it with Loveless. Which again doesn't match "lets sing about everyone" because that story is literally about a couple reuniting.

Once again my usual complaint comes up. What we're being told is not what is being shown or sold. It does seem like it's more about the rule of cool over substance I guess.

I now see even more clearly why others including Loren would be confused about what the devs were trying to do here. It's giving me a headache just trying to piece together the thought process behind a lot of these decisions. But I think it makes sense if they were going for the grand pretty performance aspect of it.

Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful scene, beautiful song etc. But I think maybe the visuals and grandness on a more superficial level was the inspiration here.

Which makes sense, creators do that all the time when taking inspiration it's never 1:1.

But I have to say the message itself in the midst of all that's happening on screen here, the interviews, promos etc...it does get muddled. And with all the above, if Nojima had never said he wrote it so she's singing about everyone it honestly would have never have occurred to me.

@Eerie Oh so Nojima's statement on NTPK was all prepped far in advance? Which makes me wonder even more then why no one cleared up with Loren and Uematsu AND the website designers this message. Nojima literally worked with her giving her instructions as she sang. Unless Nojima revealed this on his own after they had already recorded and created all the promotional materials. He does seem to be clarifying some sort of consensus that it's a love song to one person. If not from the playing audience getting this impression then his own team.

Which makes it more confusing how his team wouldn't get the memo of the creator's vision. And reinforces my point we really should only focus on his statement because we can have no idea what when on behind the scenes.

As for the Aerith scene in the end. I change my mind every few weeks of what is happening there. As null said it's very emotionally confusing. I can't be sure what Aerith I'm actually looking at. Aerith for real when Cloud looks away maybe. But with Red? Etc. It's a headache to piece together.

 

[Skilganon]

If you listen to the additional lyrics of NPTK during the credits, stuff like "Finding ourselves all alone", yeah, Aerith is clearly singing about a singular love interest, at least in the english version. Nojima's statement about the song "Being about everyone" presents an incongruity. And hence, we have acrimony on social media.

What I also find interesting is how all the imagery of the english lyrics: "be together forevermore, take my hand, finding a place safe for you etc. etc." It seems tailor-made for a CA perception of the story. That Cloud and Aerith have this spiritual, existential connection, they will be drawn together across universes.

But then Cloud will kiss a different woman on the Skywheel date, and not Aerith. The parts don't really fit. Aerith is not singing about unrequited love, but about a future love. If the english lyrics were about everyone, I feel like this whole section would make more sense.

I don't know japanese, but I've heard the original japanese lyrics have a more mournful vibe. Aerith also cries after the performance. Did she recover her knowledge of the future? Does she know she's going to die?

I really think anyone who plays Rebirth without any sort of second-hand info is going to just assume NPTK is a love song from Aerith to Cloud, and there isn't much evidence in the game to say otherwise.

 

[Nancy]

This is my two small cent after going through all the recent post about NPTK


Final Fantasy VII Rebirth Post-Release Interview (Part 1) - Devs Discuss the Story

Again, this align with Nojima's posts on x when clarifying about NPTK not being about one person but about everyone and herself

We know from playing remake to rebirth and the interview from the devs telling us that in rebirth they wanted to show us the bonds the characters have with each other. So I can't just imagine those bonds will just disappear for a while to show Aerith singing about a guy, no matter if the Eng lyrics is and sounds romantic. Hell, even Hollow lyrics is and sounds romantic but it isn't

It doesn't matter if whoever got Tifa's date, Aerith's or Barret's date or the others, what's important and what the devs what to tell us is that the characters who participated in the Loveless show is there listening to Aerith sing and there afterwards. If and I mean IF the song was supposedly from Aerith to Cloud, they could have just shown him and Aerith throughout that whole singing section and have the other members stand beside them bowing to the audience when it was ending but no, they didn't. Instead they show all the characters Aerith has bonded with throughout her whole journey, expect for Jessie ofc since she only show a poster of her


Final Fantasy VII Rebirth: How Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred created Aerith’s “No Promises to Keep”

Yes, Uematsu, Nojima and the devs intended for NPTK to be a love song but a love song to who, they didn't mention anyone except Nojima again saying it's about everyone. Throughout remake to rebirth, we know what kind of character Aerith is apart from her sassy and street smart attitude, we also learn/know that she's someone who cherish and loves everything and everyone around her. Even if she grew up having to watch her mom passed away, her growing up not having friends and knowing shinra is monitoring her, she still loves everything around her. So I can't imagine her writing a song which wouldn't include those people who she loves along the way. And don't forget, Cait Sith try to peak at her work when she was having trouble writing down her feelings and she got mad at him. Why would she get mad at Cait Sith if the song was only about Cloud?

Nojima literally worked with her giving her instructions as she sang.

Probably Nojima was involved but I'm pretty sure it wasn't only him


If you want to read the whole interview, the link is the one above this post

From the interviews I found and to me, it seems like the devs were on the same pg., regarding NPTK. I'm not trying to blame Loren for thinking the song is from Aerith to Cloud since she gotta do her own research bc as the post above, their connection wasn't working and she kept getting cut off. From what I'm getting from Uematsu, they only told her the direction of how they wanted her to sing the song, I don't believe they had her told about the song being about everyone.
The second ss is from Loren Allred reveals what it's like to sing as Aerith in the 'Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth' theme song and she mention getting to meet Uematsu which I believe happen after she had already finish recording the song

If anyone wants to see/find the Eng lyrics and JPN kanji and translation lyrics of NPTK, I'm leaving the link here (Not sure how accurate the translation is): FFVII Rebirth Theme Song "No Promises to Keep" Original Lyrics Translated

Yes, the Eng and JPN lyrics look romantic like someone is singing to a love one but let me ask you guys this, if you guys are going to write a love song, would you only write about one person? Or everyone in your life that you love, your spouse, a friend, girl or guy, or a family member like mom, dad, sister and brother?

I have seen posts on x about the other side, the loud ones ofc, about how CA can't have anything that belongs to them bc CT or ZA is always taking it away. As a CT, all I can say is we haven't taken away anything. CA have their own moments, CT have their own moments. The same goes to NPTK. Nojima has clarify, I don't know how many times he has talk about it in interviews and on x and he's probably tired of it, the song is indeed a love song but it isn't about from Aerith to Cloud but from Aerith to everyone.

Okay, that's my two cent on NPTK and off into the shadows I go, hahaha or not, we will see

 

[Eerie]

What I also find interesting is how all the imagery of the english lyrics: "be together forevermore, take my hand, finding a place safe for you etc. etc." It seems tailor-made for a CA perception of the story. That Cloud and Aerith have this spiritual, existential connection, they will be drawn together across universes.

But then Cloud will kiss a different woman on the Skywheel date, and not Aerith. The parts don't really fit. Aerith is not singing about unrequited love, but about a future love. If the english lyrics were about everyone, I feel like this whole section would make more sense.

As I said it's worse, because that line about holding hands? It's when Cloud takes Tifa's hand. The message is crystal clear about what he wants during the CT date.

Also I don't think CA have a spiritual connection, sorry but the girl using her powers to communicate with him isn't a spiritual connection. The one he invites in his own world/mind to save her and who saves him in her turn, who has the same core memories as him? Heck yeah, this is the soulmate, the one he has a deep bond and a spiritual connection with.

I have seen posts on x about the other side, the loud ones ofc, about how CA can't have anything that belongs to them bc CT or ZA is always taking it away. As a CT, all I can say is we haven't taken away anything. CA have their own moments, CT have their own moments.

If anything I'd argue that devs have freely given CT motifs to CA so yeah... no matter how you look at it, they were the ones who took stuff from us there. I am still a little angry at the devs for that (both the stars motif as well as the water tower, so they OWE US BIG if you want my opinion).

Also, I don't think I ever seen an interview where it was stated that Nojima worked with Lauren. Only Uematsu, and I think there was a filmed scene where we saw Nomura stop by and say "no no I'm good" and not staying in the end (when Uematsu was working with Lauren) xD

 

[GodofWars]

I have seen posts on x about the other side, the loud ones ofc, about how CA can't have anything that belongs to them bc CT or ZA is always taking it away. As a CT, all I can say is we haven't taken away anything. CA have their own moments, CT have their own moments. The same goes to NPTK. Nojima has clarify, I don't know how many times he has talk about it in interviews and on x and he's probably tired of it, the song is indeed a love song but it isn't about from Aerith to Cloud but from Aerith to everyone.

Exactly this. I don't think I have seen this "You want to take away from us" take anywhere but in hardcore CA fandom, especially about NPTK and all the Loveless + dates thing. Most people get that this is a moment out of time, that relies on choices that the player makes, and don't feel the need to claim canon on any of the scenes we were given. I don't know what it stems from but I don't think that it's just Nojima and co that are tired of it.

Also I don't think CA have a spiritual connection, sorry but the girl using her powers to communicate with him isn't a spiritual connection. The one he invites in his own world/mind to save her and who saves him in her turn, who has the same core memories as him? Heck yeah, this is the soulmate, the one he has a deep bond and a spiritual connection with.

I kind of disagree here. I can see a deep bond between Cloud and Aerith. Not necessarily a romantic one but a "student-master" one, for sure. I also see it muddied by Rebirth Aerith being more inclined to try a romantic pursuit. But in Remake, she's very much this all-knowing figure that Cloud has to learn from in order to be able to save the planet.
Rebirth was more complicated. They went for a different Aerith, one that I admit I like a little less because she's more into love than into the reason they started this journey in the first place, up until the last two chapters, where we get her back. Her speech at the Temple, and the way she faces Sephiroth before and after death feels like we finally get her well developed, outside of Cloud and Zack. I also see her presence in ACC as a guiding one, exactly like a mother would be, warm, comforting and nonjudmental. Which is why she's called mother by so many.
I'd argue that Tifa has to be the grounding presence where Aerith is supposed to be the one to help you on your way looking forward. Both of them are necessary to succeed. Tifa is very much needed to allow Cloud to finally accept himself as he is, and to stay tethered to the part of himself he has yet to discover. Aerith is needed to be this guiding force, the reminder of what you're fighting for, especially after her death, and she is, for all of them.

 

[Eerie]

I kind of disagree here. I can see a deep bond between Cloud and Aerith. Not necessarily a romantic one but a "student-master" one, for sure. I also see it muddied by Rebirth Aerith being more inclined to try a romantic pursuit. But in Remake, she's very much this all-knowing figure that Cloud has to learn from in order to be able to save the planet.

Let me be clear: I'm not talking about a deep bond, I think they do have one. I'm talking specifically about a "spiritual connection" as well as "soulmates", which I have often seen thrown at them. Unless the spiritual connection is missing Zack, I just don't see it.

Edit: the spiritual connection does also exist in ZA, because Aerith can feel Zack touching her hand in his Lifestream world, which means the Lifestream connects them, just as much as it connects CT. Those two are the spiritual, soulmates bonds. CA has nothing like that.

 

[GodofWars]

Ah yes well, I don't know about soulmates, but I still agree that it's definitely spiritual. As in, not carnal, not born of feelings of sexual attraction. More of a platonic bond. I don't know if I'm making myself clear here.
Soulmate is such a strong word and is sometimes casually thrown in these conversations. If you think about it in terms of "bound to meet", it can make sense. But if you think about it in a lover sense then yes I disagree.