SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

We shouldn't need to read an Ultimania to find out that a line about a singular person was actually about "loved ones in general". If that was the purpose of the line, that should have been true from the start. The rejected line about "the other side of the mountain" actually serves this purpose better, like, infinitely better. It's also a metaphor.

It's about Aerith. Who is a loved one. Who died. Literally days ago. Again I argue it would be really weird if they didn't think of her. Especially when the Promised Land has been related with the Cetra the whole game. Especially when she's the one with powers to manipulate the Lifestream. Especially when her theme is playing to not think of her.

But we also have to understand that meeting Aerith is the answer to what is the Promised Land. It's not just put there for no reason. It's a symbol of hope that there is an opportunity in death to reunite with those who have died. Therefore death isn't the end. I don't think we needed an Ultimania to understand this.

Sure people can read into it however they will.

But the idea isn't a mystery, it's story progression it makes sense with the themes of the game. It's not there because they needed more LTD. The scene switching to Tifa is because Tifa is the living person who is now by Cloud's side. It's a beautiful scene. And even my CA self never thought Tifa was just inviting herself to Cloud's love affair. Because the scene is just about so much more than "which girl guy pick?"and thinking that it's about a girl getting friend zoned is a weird take and does a disservice to the themes built in the story.

And we can agree on this even if we think that CA is romantic or not that the devs wouldn't be using a scene like that to screw over Tifa and show how she's forever alone because that's just way more shallow of a read than the art unfolding on the screen I'm sorry. I don't think if people think that way it's necessarily the fault of the devs trying to create a beautiful scene to connect the themes of their story. I don't think we should change art in general because it may not be understood but that's me.

Also Tifa's main concern is the exact same. She's saying the same thing. She too wants to see Aerith. If Cid was there hanging next to them, I bet he too would be thinking of Aerith. The party in the moment is mourning Aerith who in AC is described as super loved and important. This isn't strange. I don't see how this is anything of a problem or mystery that two characters wish to see another character that died in front of them days prior. And maybe you like that other scene more it's also a nice scene.
But I think this one is fine as is personally. And other scenes exist that show romance because that's what they're about. While this is about hope beyond death.

And as a CA I don't blame people for seeing romance in the story nor do I have any issues with wavering characters or multiple love interests either. But we should also wonder of the purpose of scenes in terms of the intentions of creators. How they connect in terms of themes etc. And many takes on this scene really are weird and go against those themes and do a disservice to it sadly.

But again, I don't think that's because of the devs fault. They were just creating. I don't think they expected any of this to happen and I'm again seeing their intentions now in the moment.

 

[Skilganon]

And we can agree on this even if we think that CA is romantic or not that the devs wouldn't be using a scene like that to screw over Tifa and show how she's forever alone because that's just way more shallow of a read than the art unfolding on the screen I'm sorry. I don't think if people think that way it's necessarily the fault of the devs trying to create a beautiful scene to connect the themes of their story. I don't think we should change art in general because it may not be understood but that's me.

Maybe it's because I'm very cynical, but I find the reasoning of "Do you think the devs would screw over Tifa" to be a bit weak. Because as we've already discussed, the portrayal of Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC is pretty terrible.

After AC released, Nomura pushed back in an interview where it was suggested that the Cloud and Tifa relationship felt depressing, said "If you look closer, you'll see they actually have a good relationship". Nomura thought the scenes in AC were enough. One shouldn't have to look closer.

This is why I don't have faith in Nomura as a story-teller.

Overall, what the devs choose to focus on is strange given what we've been told about the romance. We are told Cloud was happy with Tifa, we don't see this. Maybe it's in short stories, but the moving image is vastly more salient. We only ever see Cloud and Tifa together at their lowest point, all while Aerith is remembered with fondness, always accompanied by light, flowers, showers of healing rain. It's been 27 years and we've never actually seen Cloud and Tifa happy and in a relationship in a video game or movie. If all you've seen was AC, you would have no inkling that the lifestream scene even happened or that Cloud had a crush on Tifa his whole life (what the OG and CC tell us). The short story collection that filled in critical moments before AC came out three years after the US release of AC.

So yeah, I wouldn't put it past the devs to unwittingly make characters look bad.

I also don't think making these relationships clear would necessarily mean dumbing down the art. I think the CT relationship in Remake and Rebirth is complex, nuanced, artistically portrayed, all while giving critical information about how these characters relate to each other.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe it's because I'm very cynical, but I find the reasoning of "Do you think the devs would screw over Tifa" to be a bit weak. Because as we've already discussed, the portrayal of Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC is pretty terrible.

After AC released, Nomura pushed back in an interview where it was suggested that the Cloud and Tifa relationship felt depressing, said "If you look closer, you'll see they actually have a good relationship". Nomura thought the scenes in AC were enough. One shouldn't have to look closer.

This is why I don't have faith in Nomura as a story-teller.

Overall, what the devs choose to focus on is strange given what we've been told about the romance. We are told Cloud was happy with Tifa, we don't see this. Maybe it's in short stories, but the moving image is vastly more salient. We only ever see Cloud and Tifa together at their lowest point, all while Aerith is remembered with fondness, always accompanied by light, flowers, showers of healing rain. It's been 27 years and we've never actually seen Cloud and Tifa happy and in a relationship in a video game or movie. If all you've seen was AC, you would have no inkling that the lifestream scene even happened or that Cloud had a crush on Tifa his whole life (what the OG and CC tell us). The short story collection that filled in critical moments before AC came out three years after the US release of AC.

So yeah, I wouldn't put it past the devs to unwittingly make characters look bad.

I guess I'm the wrong person to tell this to because as a CA I wasn't convinced I cared much about Tifa until Advent Children.
And it wasn't because I pitied her.
In fact let's pretend Advent Children never happened. I probably wouldn't be caring about CT at all honestly. Because to me seeing them go through stuff together that's what I saw as "wow the devs are getting serious let me pay attention." I've said it before but Tifa telling Cloud to stop running is when I changed my opinion on her. And to this day if you ask me what scene convinced me to look twice at CT it's that scene. Not the promise scene. Not the Lifestream scene. That one. If that scene didn't exist I likely wouldn't be having this conversation. And I think it's because of how hard it hits. Someone that loves you doesn't sit there and watch you wallow. They snap you out of it. And what does he do after this scene? He stops running. He literally starts driving he starts facing what he needs to. That's not depressing. That's a good partner. That's a pretty realistic portrayal of two people trying to get by after an almost Apocalypse. Together. And it's beautiful. Things don't need to be sparkly and shiny to be beautiful and have deep meaning. And that's what I like about what the devs did with AC even though yes they were amateurs at the time in the movie department. But I love the vision. And the message.
I never saw it as a bad relationship or anything. A realistic one maybe. And I find the devs were pretty bold to show the not so pretty side of a relationship. I wish more media did that actually. Yes as a CA I love the flowery stuff too. I understand why people do. But going through trials and overcoming them together is also a part of building relationships and I like seeing that.

So maybe that's my bias. I understand my view is not what others see. I understand wanting more sunshine so to speak in a dreary looking movie. I understand that for other people the starry stuff with the promise and Under The Highwind is what they like and want more of. I get it.

But I also think the devs put a lot of love into their representations. I don't think they were nor ever are trying to portray their main characters in bad light. I think it's we as fans that do that.

 

[Chaoticgumbo]

Eh, I have to admit, I get Skilganon's sentiments because I myself have felt that way. I played FFVII before KH and all of the compilations and knowledge of the Ultimanias. I remember that scene in the end where Cloud tells Tifa about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land and I felt that was intentionally placed to make Cloud's romantic feelings vague. As a bigtime CT, that was painful to watch, I especially felt bad Tifa had to hear that. Yes, I get it could have been a generic statement about meeting a loved party member (we know that is now the case), but back then before the compilation, you wouldn't have known that. Just the placement of that statement and scene was to create vagueness. I mean why change the text from meeting the other side of the mountain which would have been so sweet to this one? And they could have ended things with AC, but they again chose to be vague. And Nomura's comment about having "no idea" about their relationship without even being prompted about Cloud and Tifa.. yeah imagine, the director himself saying he has no idea. That didn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in the CT pairing. Outside text (i.e. Ultimanias) shouldn't have to clarify something that should have been made clear in media. I am very glad the devs are now finally making things very clear between Cloud and Tifa and recontextualing their relationship, but I do feel until up to this point, they didn't exactly help with the LTD. Even in this site itself, there is a whole huge LTD article which wouldn't have been the case if the devs were successful in portraying Cloud and Tifa as a romantic pairing.

 

[Skilganon]

Nomura might have meant to say he didn't care about the perspectives of the specific people who ask him about the CT relationship, a variation of the sentiment: "I don't care what shippers think"

If the devs didn't care so much about romance at the time, that's perfectly fine. Not every story needs to have romantic subplots. The issue is having Tifa live with Cloud and make her feelings for him pretty clear, whereas Cloud doesn't appear to reciprocate. That sort of arrangement prompts an explanation.

 

[Eerie]

I for one hate AC, especially the first (ACC was marginally better), but I think that Nomura really thought the answer was in the movie. He was making an assumption which was "fans played FFVII, it's obvious Cloud and Tifa are together at the end", so his answer played on that "watch the movie and you'll know". Because they worked on the movie with the idea that Cloud and Tifa were together, there was no need to elaborate on this, and everyone should get it. Of course it was an error, but it's an error often made by writers - they don't describe what's in their head. Hence fans don't follow suit.

And for the movie in itself, we are supposed to draw from Tifa's line in the Shera as well as her looks towards him that they are back together. However the movies really missed that it should have ended with CT (even ACC missed that as it ended with ZA). AC/C badly needed to end with CT because the focus was the attack on CT's home, which was not clear at all in AC, and which still to this day demands a resolve.

 

[Skilganon]

I keep hearing that Nomura and Nojima worked under the assumption that C and T were together, and I'm somewhat doubtful. There's no way to know for sure, since the devs are always cagey about these things. However, it should have been obvious to the devs at that point that C and T's relationship was very much up for debate within the fandom.

Which is why I'm leaning more toward the viewpoint that they simply didn't care about resolving the romance. It's not hard to signal to the viewer that two characters are in a romantic relationship or like each other that way. Every other FF game and franchise does this without any weirdness or confusion. We don't need dev statements to conclude that Tidus and Yuna care about each other romantically. Even pairings like Rydia/Edge and Locke/Celes are apparent just from dialogue and context.

In that same interview we've been talking about, the interviewer says at some point, "Thanks for giving us this fantasy" in response to Nomura not disclosing the status of different relationships. Nomura responds favorably to this. He's said in other interviews that he wants fans to discuss and theorize among themselves. So it seems to me the ambiguity in relationships, at least at the beginning of the compilation, was completely intentional.

And yeah, saying "It's up for interpretation" is not the same thing as "It's up to the player". But most gamers are not interested in finding this difference. Every work of art and media is up for interpretation. This doesn't mean that all interpretations are valid. Nomura says as much in his interviews, but he overestimates fans' comprehension abilities.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I keep hearing that Nomura and Nojima worked under the assumption that C and T were together, and I'm somewhat doubtful. There's no way to know for sure, since the devs are always cagey about these things. However, it should have been obvious to the devs at that point that C and T's relationship was very much up for debate within the fandom.

Which is why I'm leaning more toward the viewpoint that they simply didn't care about resolving the romance. It's not hard to signal to the viewer that two characters are in a romantic relationship or like each other that way. Every other FF game and franchise does this without any weirdness or confusion. We don't need dev statements to conclude that Tidus and Yuna care about each other romantically. Even pairings like Rydia/Edge and Locke/Celes are apparent just from dialogue and context.

In that same interview we've been talking about, the interviewer says at some point, "Thanks for giving us this fantasy" in response to Nomura not disclosing the status of different relationships. Nomura responds favorably to this. He's said in other interviews that he wants fans to discuss and theorize among themselves. So it seems to me the ambiguity in relationships, at least at the beginning of the compilation, was completely intentional.

And yeah, saying "It's up for interpretation" is not the same thing as "It's up to the player". But most gamers are not interested in finding this difference. Every work of art and media is up for interpretation. This doesn't mean that all interpretations are valid. Nomura says as much in his interviews, but he overestimates fans' comprehension abilities.

Yes,

I agree that Nomura himself favors stories being "up for interpretation." As those were his words basically. He likes it when fans think for themselves. Also I will point out this isn't a weird thing for Japanese media. Most anime, manga, video games, even movies (unless they're in the romance genre or specifically where we see couples together as the entire point of the plot) do like to leave things open for interpretation. They leave room for imagining things of their viewers. And often even if couples get together it's done off screen or mentioned as an afterward.

I'm used to this, it's just how things are. It used to bother me but now meh. I just accept it as one of those things that comes with my favorite media. And I get pleasantly surprised when creators break the trend.

If you think Nomura's I don't care was about "not caring what shippers think" I am inclined to agree. But I really don't think it's in a cynical way of not caring. More that wasn't his priority because he doesn't think of the story in the same way a fan would.

That's why I keep saying I don't think he's intentionally undermining the shippers or anything like that. He's just not thinking the way shippers would.

Also yes when OG came out I also agree I don't think they were thinking of anyone's future relationship at all and that's where that interview would fall in.

However at some point they did decide to put Tifa and Cloud living together and I'm under the impression they figured that talking about them having a good relationship, and talking about them resolving problems etc that in that time frame they figured okay so this could definitely be interpreted as them being a couple. And they figured in that case the story would speak for itself. If you interpret them as being a couple, there's your answer in the movie. And the devs view it as "a good relationship."

Also I noticed even if you don't think they're a couple and "just really good friends" they went out of their way to specify "good relationship" so no interpretation is intended to be a bad one.
No interpretation is intended to lead to the conclusion of the bad takes you hear about AC in the fandom.

Then they later on had Ultimanias with more information and figured that is that.

They're not thinking like us shippers "Omg is it clear these two people are actually together? What about naysayers?". That's not their priority and if you watch enough Japanese media and read enough Japanese interviews none of this is unique.

I have spoken before of one of my favorite BL love story No. 6 that is obviously a love story and the author herself said she's fine if people interpret them as either lovers or friends. In fact she goes further to say she wrote the love between them specifically in way so you can interpret it either way. So you can't tell with certainty whether they're friends or lovers. On purpose.
They very obviously have romantic tension with each other and even have a kiss scene. But the interpretation of the opposite clearly doesn't bother her.
She's not worried about the details such as "but what if people think they're just "friends with benefits" "but with if they're not an official couple?" "What if it looks one-sided?" Etc.
And if you think about it doesn't change her story whether they're officially dating or friends who happen to kiss or in this case even platonic soulmates. The plot is still entirely the same. So from the creators perspective her answer does make sense.

While us fan are annoyed it's not more concrete. That also makes sense.

This is just one example of many where creators favor leaving things open. Some more than others. My point being it's the norm rather than the exception and it's not done to screw over fans, or undermine romantic pairings but rather it's more of a difference in the way creators think versus how fans think. And even in that scenario where on purpose the creator wanted ambiguity the interpretation was still intended to be a favorable one. No creator is intentionally trying to undermine relationships or make characters look bad.

This is so common and I understand how it can feel like it undermines our favorite pairings but I don't think it's purposefully undermining and more they see things being up for interpretation as a "good thing", and letting fans have room to "have their fantasy" so to speak is also seen as a good thing. And then when they confirm anything they just assume people will go with it and they don't think about or care about it as much if others don't see it that way.

Anyway for AC specifically my take is it's not really "they don't care to resolve the relationship at all" and more they figured around the timeline of AC that it's "resolved enough" and didn't seem to care about the opinions or impressions beyond that in the same way a shipper would. This is regardless of if they intended ambiguity in OG or not. I don't think AC was intended to be intentionally ambiguous for LTD sake based on what they said about relationships. More that they felt even if it was ambiguous it had enough information to speak for itself. They seemed to think interpretations would be favorable too because they literally go out of their way to specify "they have a good relationship". And were "surprised" when that didn't happen.

At least at that time. But somewhere between AC and Remake it does seem they paid more attention to fan opinion. I still don't think they're prioritizing portraying relationships in the sense that they're trying to go against naysayers. I honestly don't think they care about naysayers and care more about keeping fans happy enough. And they do seem more aware of fan opinions.

However I do have to say fans again think differently than creators. They want "hard confirmations" "no room for doubt" etc. And those are rare especially in Japanese media where leaving things open is their go to strategy. And so in the minds of the FANS it's "badly portrayed" or "not clear enough looks bad etc"

But as I pointed out it's we the FANS that do that.
Not the creators.

Even if we argue something is up for interpretation. Creators still usually want you to have the most favorable interpretation not the worst one.

Edits: Made my point clearer through example and elaboration.

 

[Skilganon]

It's true that explaining everything in a story 100% is impossible and ambiguity shouldn't be seen as a negative in and of itself.

Ambiguity can enhance a story if used well, for example with the Cloud and Aerith relationship. We are not meant to know exactly how Cloud was attracted to Aerith, how much of that attraction was due to Cloud suppressing his own memories or taking on Zack's qualities, or if Aerith's attraction to Cloud was predicated on Cloud's true persona or his resemblance to Zack. This ambiguity is intentional and fits with the themes of the game: How memory is tied to identity. If someone becomes attracted to another person in a bout of amnesia, to what extent can we say it wasn't "them"?

Keeping the Cloud and Tifa relationship ambiguous harms the story, specifically because of AC. It also undermines the revelations of the lifestream and Cloud's own self-actualization.

No interpretation is intended to lead to the conclusion of the bad takes you hear about AC in the fandom.

These bad takes weren't the devs intention, but we only know that because of interviews Nomura did after AC's release. Before the release is when Nomura takes this "up for interpretation" attitude and that's why AC turned out the way it is. If you see Cloud's feelings for Tifa as platonic, then the two characters are pretty much living a lie. Cloud has made commitments he doesn't plan on honoring. Tifa is holding out for a guy who may or may not return her feelings in the future. And when you ask people, "Do you think the devs of FFVII would turn their hero into an asshole who abandons his family?", well... that's kind of what happens in AC. Remember, OTWTAS came out in the US three years after AC's first theatrical run. Viewers didn't have the vital context that Cloud and Tifa had already been living together for some time prior to the film.

All of these bad takes are due to sloppy writing, intentional or not.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Skilganon

I added this in my edit sorry so it's clearer

"I don't think AC was intended to be intentionally ambiguous for LTD sake based on what they said about relationships. More that they felt even if it was ambiguous it had enough information to speak for itself. They seemed to think interpretations would be favorable too because they literally go out of their way to specify "they have a good relationship". And were "surprised" when that didn't happen."

Also I'm one of those people that doesn't see it as any great sin if Cloud and Tifa are not officially together in AC or even if they're just friends at any point in the story. Relationships are complicated.

However I think based on what they did say about the relationship they still were speaking about it in a way where they wanted people to interpret it as a couple even if it's not water tight as saying it out loud. The language used steers you into thinking it's a couple going through issues rather than "here's a jerk who lives with his friend and leads her on."

Also this type of writing is in a lot of Japanese media so I don't know if I'd classify it as sloppy writing rather a difference in priorities or style. No I don't think it's a masterpiece at all, and sure it's amateur but I'm not convinced it's as terrible as others tend to say it is either.

Also this is going to be controversial to say but I will say it:

I don't think anyone should expect that great of romance in an action focused franchise written by Japanese men? Based on those standards compared to what we usually get I think it's definitely better than it could have turned out. Some of my favorite media doesn't even show the characters together in the same house rather implies they are together in some capacity and focuses on their bonds with other characters for the rest of the spin offs or whatever. So I think for 2005 AC and the compilation was kind of "a step up".
I understand the frustration. Just adding some perspective.

I tend to assume bad takes are not writers' intention just by default. Of course creators don't want us to think their characters are jerks unless otherwise specified or they're villains. So I tend to throw out any takes that suggest that and I think that should be the norm.

Just because such takes exist doesn't mean they deserve attention.

Also there's something to be said about fans doing their due diligence to understand the media they're consuming too especially if it's from another culture.

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think anyone should expect that great of romance in an action focused franchise written by Japanese men? Based on those standards compared to what we usually get I think it's definitely better than it could have turned out. Some of my favorite media doesn't even show the characters together in the same house rather implies they are together in some capacity and focuses on their bonds with other characters for the rest of the spin offs or whatever. So I think for 2005 AC and the compilation was kind of "a step up".
I understand the frustration. Just adding some perspective.

These creators would go on to create FF8 and FF10, in which the romantic connections are fairly clear, confidently and artistically portrayed compared to FF7, even with translation issues.

For example, the first time you see Laguna and Raine on screen, you know there's something between them, even with Laguna's awkward goofiness often making it difficult to understand his intentions.

Even within FF7, there is no confusion over what Zack and Aerith were to each other. "He was my first love" there you go.

Nojima and Nomura aren't clueless when it comes to portraying romance. Also, Nomura's excuse, "This is a work made by japanese people" strikes me as kind of lame. A lot of japanese media relies on symbolism, ambiguity, layers of meaning. But I don't often see media from any culture that glosses over character relationships that are central to the plot. In most media, whether two characters are romantically linked is as important as whether or not they are related by blood.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

These creators would go on to create FF8 and FF10, in which the romantic connections are fairly clear, confidently and artistically portrayed compared to FF7, even with translation issues.

For example, the first time you see Laguna and Raine on screen, you know there's something between them, even with Laguna's awkward goofiness often making it difficult to understand his intentions.

Even within FF7, there is no confusion over what Zack and Aerith were to each other. "He was my first love" there you go.

Nojima and Nomura aren't clueless when it comes to portraying romance. Also, Nomura's excuse, "This is a work made by japanese people" strikes me as kind of lame. A lot of japanese media relies on symbolism, ambiguity, layers of meaning. But I don't often see media from any culture that glosses over character relationships that are central to the plot. In most media, whether two characters are romantically linked is as important as whether or not they are related by blood.

Laguna and Raine are shown as a thing yes but the entire highlight is on Laguna and Julia who sings the theme song. It's not until later on that they fully established Raine's connection to everything and what was going on with Laguna and Ellone. We learn about her tragic death and how they met and yes it's sweet.
But if anyone speaks about the game in conversation no one outside the fandom talks about Raine. They talk about and know Julia singing and Rinoa and Squall the children of Julia and Laguna who loved each other but could not be together and Eyes On Me the song Julia wrote about him......

If you think that is "clear" and somehow "better". Okay.

I think Squall and Rinoa would be the better example. Since they have a sort of love triangle they resolve and were very fleshed out.

Sure Zerith was super clear in Crisis Core. Barely mentioned in OG, and in OTWTAS Lifestream White and AC it's like they forgot his connection to Aerith. but sure Crisis Core was nice. Then Kingdom Hearts has Zack flirting with Aqua and no connection to Aerith is mentioned. Gotta love the consistency. So case in point that wasn't perfect either.
And if you think it was better in Japanese than English not really , because yes "first love" but the assumption that Zack was still a ladies man she says she wasn't so serious about who might have left her is also there in Japanese. If anything he sounds like an ex who left her because the narrative is hiding what actually happened. It's the story and extra scenes with him that later flesh this out. The scene of him dying with context of who he is not even included upon release of the original Japanese version and added later. And devs have talked about not knowing the mystery with Zack themselves even though they worked on it together and finding out in the end. Even they were in the dark. So I wouldn't call it super clear from the beginning either. Over time it became clearer, sure.

Tidus and Yuna are great. Then Nojima wrote about them basically breaking up and Tidus losing his head to a bomb he kicked.

Just saying.

Also these are examples of works written after they had some experience. FF7 is an example of when they were amateurs and AC was them learning how to make a film. Also other people besides them were working on these as well so other factors are involved.

Truth is this team was not just Japanese men. They were also amateurs and learning the ropes. So they struggled along the way and it clearly shows. Yes they improved over time but they were never romance experts and as I said no one should expect them to be, especially on earlier works. So I gotta give them credit for not just off screening the relationships and calling it a day like many other creators have done.

Nomura is pointing out the culture difference and expectations of between Western audiences and Japanese creators. It was a very valid point that had nothing really to do with LTD and more with the style and structure of the film.

Until around this point Japanese films weren't exactly mainstream yet the film was being shown around the world so he was pointing out how the movie was different from media audiences might be used to. Such as it's more slow paced, more introspective. There's a lot more implying than saying things out loud. Etc.

I don't know or will assume how much Japanese media you've watched but I can tell you I've seen enough to say glossing over relationships does happen.

In a lot of the Japanese media I've watched the best friend is shown to have more screen time than the love interest (who may or not be shown in one scene in the OVA while the protagonist and best friend yell out eachothers names in one of my favorite franchises) Unless again we're talking about a romance genre or something.

Edit: Julia, Rinoa

 

[Skilganon]

Laguna and Raine is actually a good example, because this is a character with a previously established love interest. In a short period of time, the game communicates that several years have past, Laguna is living in Winhill and raising Ellone, and is in a relationship with Raine. They have to establish Laguna/Raine and talk about what happened to Julia to fill in Squall and Rinoa's back stories. It all fits with the theme.

Which brings us to FF7. I've always thought the love triangle was a way to put us in Cloud's shoes. To make the player think about the construction of identity. When talking about the LTD, fans constantly make claims about what words/actions of Cloud Strife are authentic, which is perfect when the subject is a character suppressing his own memories and constructing a false persona. This ambiguity serves the plot.

But Cloud has to eventually regain his memories and personality which are not affected by Fate or the player's decisions. We say "Cloud is his own person", but it goes deeper than that, because that phrase encapsulates Cloud's entire arc. Cloud has specific dreams, desires, personality traits. There should have been no desire or notion to include an "old Cloud that fans remember". Making things "up for interpretation" after his self-actualization undermines his whole personal journey. This is not a unique argument.

As source material ages, fans tend to become more set in their views. The idea that you choose who Cloud loves has been floating around shipping-neutral message boards, probably since the release of the OG. This notion is widely used to difuse any kind of LTD argument and act like these are just equally valid viewpoints of the same story. Seeing the Remake series and how hard they seem to be pushing Cloud and Tifa, I have to ask... Why now? If C and T do get together in a non-optional scene, it's going to become much more difficult to believe a neutral stance. Fans will look back at those old interviews and wonder if Nojima and Nomura changed their minds. Because if a certain couple does become canon, then it means certain people were right and others were wrong.

I mean, if you found out that this fictional couple you really like is predicated on some translation error or inept writing, and the devs have been allowing you to believe it was genuine for 30 years... I dunno.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Laguna and Raine is actually a good example, because this is a character with a previously established love interest. In a short period of time, the game communicates that several years have past, Laguna is living in Winhill and raising Ellone, and is in a relationship with Raine. They have to establish Laguna/Raine and talk about what happened to Julia to fill in Squall and Rinoa's back stories. It all fits with the theme.

Which brings us to FF7. I've always thought the love triangle was a way to put us in Cloud's shoes. To make the player think about the construction of identity. When talking about the LTD, fans constantly make claims about what words/actions of Cloud Strife are authentic, which is perfect when the subject is a character suppressing his own memories and constructing a false persona. This ambiguity serves the plot.

But Cloud has to eventually regain his memories and personality which are not affected by Fate or the player's decisions. We say "Cloud is his own person", but it goes deeper than that, because that phrase encapsulates Cloud's entire arc. Cloud has specific dreams, desires, personality traits. There should have been no desire or notion to include an "old Cloud that fans remember". Making things "up for interpretation" after his self-actualization undermines his whole personal journey. This is not a unique argument.

As source material ages, fans tend to become more set in their views. The idea that you choose who Cloud loves has been floating around shipping-neutral message boards, probably since the release of the OG. This notion is widely used to difuse any kind of LTD argument and act like these are just equally valid viewpoints of the same story. Seeing the Remake series and how hard they seem to be pushing Cloud and Tifa, I have to ask... Why now? If C and T do get together in a non-optional scene, it's going to become much more difficult to believe a neutral stance. Fans will look back at those old interviews and wonder if Nojima and Nomura changed their minds. Because if a certain couple does become canon, then it means certain people were right and others were wrong.

I mean, if you found out that this fictional couple you really like is predicated on some translation error or inept writing, and the devs have been allowing you to believe it was genuine for 30 years... I dunno.

My point with Laguna and Raine is yes it makes sense with the story and beautifully fits. But the perception of the viewers is such that even so they don't talk about Raine. Also in terms of love interests as I said the general public is more inclined to focus on his story with Julia. So because of this do we say it was sloppy writing that didn't portray their characters as they should? No because you just admitted it's good writing. And yet the good writing doesn't change fan or viewer perception. That's its own thing. Separate from how amateur the devs are in the romance department.

Now I ask you: is that any different from the situation with FF7? Where the story is written fairly well people agree it's a classic masterpiece etc. The opposite of inept writing. Yet fan and viewer perception have different viewpoints that mean their takeaways from the story often contradict with what the devs themselves have said. Is it really because "sloppy" or "inept writing" that we're in this situation?

Because I just pointed out these devs have weaknesses that have always existed and not really gone away. These devs have always been a bit inconsistent when adding new material. These devs have always not been the pinnacle of romance writing as I pointed out out even with the examples you gave. But as you pointed out yourself FF8 and FF10 were still good enough regardless right?

So my question is FF7 and the compilation really the "exception" here? Or have like with Final Fantasy VIII and FFX the devs just have been doing what they always have? Just with FF7 being their first time with a larger scale compilation. Because as I pointed out so many people like to complain about OTWTAS and inconsistencies in the compilation or how characters "look bad" but I counter that argument with FFX 2.5 Eien no Daishou. Which is way worse, yes? Same writer. It's clearly contradicting everything that came before.
Is FF7 Reallyyyy the exception?

I don't think it is. I think the devs have been doing things as they always have for years and their methods still haven't actually changed. They tend to be inconsistent and clear things up over time not always in the moment because they add extra information using media mix in the form of compilation.
Because Japanese company.

But in the same way you very easily found out the true intentions of the Raine and Julia stories in FF8, fans of 7 can do that same thing and understand how both CT and CA and also ZA tie into the story of FF7.
The problem is many are set in their ways yes. And many don't want to.

And that is a separate problem from the writing abilities of the devs.
That is separate from their romance writing skills which haven't been different actually despite getting ever so slightly better.

Sure I agree that the devs approach of let's add things over time and not tell it in the moment has lead to some of this. Not translating Ultimanias in English in a timely manner etc is also an issue. But we should know they do things this way by now too. And understand how to shift our own views to allow for new information. Not just stay stuck on the same view which over time might be outdated. This goes for everything not just media.

Things being "up for interpretation" is the favorite go to phrase of Japanese creators as that is usually considered a good thing to leave things open enough for fans to discuss or think about and as I pointed out they still want you to have a favorable interpretation and have their own thoughts that they talk about too. Which gives us major hints of a creator's vision and intent which exists regardless of our interpretation. Then new material or interviews can later come out that completely go against our interpretation. That's just how it is. I've been through this enough times to learn just because they want us to have an interpretation and enjoy our fantasy doesn't mean it aligns with their vision. And their vision is the canon, not our interpretation.

And if they did indeed change their minds and went from favoring ambiguity and "open interpretation" to wanting to minimize it or wanting to add stuff for clarity that's a good thing for fans who wanted that. I just go with what I'm given, personally so I'm fine with that.

To address the rest of your points I will say we fans now so many years later should understand what exactly we're dealing with by now. We should understand the writers' methods and philosophies and I can't stress enough how much they really haven't changed by now. They're just trying to stick to their original vision as well as expand on it now that they have the experience and resources for it. Whether or not we like how they do it they're going to do it regardless. If anyone is "shocked" by anything the devs do or say in 2027 I say they haven't been paying attention. They've literally been voicing their thoughts and intentions with this franchise since the early days of development.
If we have someone telling us exactly how they feel about their work and what they plan on doing with it for years and we kind of make the commitment to stick around then we shouldn't be surprised when they do exactly as they said they would.
We should know what we got ourselves into by now at least and we should look at the screen and see what is there with the idea of accepting what is actually on it in the end. Whatever it is.

Not what we wish it was.

Edit: clarification of my point

 

[Eerie]

Nomura did point out that many FFVII fans have a distorted perception of the game, and I think settling down this distorted perception is one of the devs' goals, especially Nojima and Nomura (IIRC Nomura said that Nojima only agreed to come back if he could write how he wanted). This distortion does not concern only shipping, but a large part of FFVII and its lore, IMHO.

While I generally agree with what @LunarTarotGirl wrote, I also think that Nojima is up to leave no place for romantic feelings between Cloud and Aerith (in fact, Cloud already called her a nakama, rejecting romantic feelings for her, which tracks with the game showing that Cloud is already deeply in love with Tifa and treats her differently from the others).

What does make me say this? Well, aside the very obvious Cloud and Tifa connection, the upcoming Lifestream scene and him confessing and kissing Tifa (I insist but it's already written in Rebirth for a reason), Zack is the reason why I think they are going to leave no place but fanon for CA. And the reason why I firmly believe this is because Marlene did not need to tell Zack that Aerith loved someone else now. The only reason to write this in is to up the tension between Zack and Aerith when they reunite and have her have to explain her feelings. And since "her first love Zack is always by her side" and I do not believe that he would be there to be the third wheel to CA, even one-sided. He would bow out, and we are going to be shown why he doesn't (which tie to Aerith's feelings not being romantic towards Cloud). And I've said it before but it was one of the posts here that made me believe that there would probably be a ZA kiss too. The whole sequence before Zack fights Sephiroth with most probably CoLW Aerith there healing him and "seeing" him before joining the Lifestream, in her church, her promised land, makes me believe that her last wish was answered by the Planet too.

Lastly, when you look at the characters, you have :

• Cloud, an "it's only you" type of character - and the LSS answers who is "you", even though with the Remake trilogy, it should be clear before that;
• Tifa, an "it's only you" type of character;
• Zack, an "it's only you" type of character;
• Aerith, an "???" type of character.

If you look at the three others, knowing how she sees Zack through Cloud, even right before she dies... I don't believe she's truly fallen for Cloud. She might be interested, but IMHO she is lost in a sea of "this guy is like Zack!" and makes him play the role even more (think about the description of the Honey Bee scene, how Cloud takes inspiration from Zack and how absolutely thrilled Aerith is there; to me it was a huge signal back then and I kept coming back to it, and even now I am back to it, even moreso that she admitted seeing Zack in Cloud). So I think Aerith, in truth, is an "it's only you" type of character, and that her arc is like a circle. The only guy she's truly ever loved is Zack, and there's no going back from this, because Zack has such a huge role in her life that it's not something we can truly imagine.

And no, I don't believe that the devs changed the story; the difference is that in ACC, they gave Aerith a "good ending" for her fans, one where she reunites with her true love. But they created Tifa to be by the hero's side until the end. Nojima says it, he viewed them in the context of mariage, and he always knew from the beginning that they'd reunite, ending up together. Yes it's true, AC and even ACC could be better written. It should have a CT ending, not in an optional scene on a DVD that's not even part of the movie, because the attack was on their home, their family, their bond was strained. And I think that's why TKAA ends up with Even talking to them, because Nojima knew that this kind of scene was missing. But the devs were young and learning, and at least they gave us ACC which is marginally better as at least we understand wtf is going on.

So coming back to Aerith's "good ending" (but bittersweet I guess), this is what the devs are coming back to. Kitase mentioned before p3 that he asked for a scene that had never been shown in the Compilation, and I can't help but feel that this is the ZA reunion that he asked for. CT already have a good ending, despite what the fans think, it will probably be expanded upon with more family time shown and some happiness since Nomura wrote a new ending. I'm personally hoping to see other characters' arc properly finished, with happiness down the road for them too. The devs have not changed their views on the OG: they're just expanding on them to showcase their vision.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well I think it's still too early to say for sure how exactly this will go. While I agree it would be the smart choice to resolve ZA and give them something concrete there's also the possibility they'll leave that open too. Or they just won't go to deep into it like in ACC and we'll get the same unresolved feelings because we end up with ACC but HD. That's also something we should be prepared for. But whatever happens reunion or not I will just say it's been a long time coming.

I have to be honest. I don't fully agree the church scene fully closed the door on CA yet in the sense of confirmation. There's a lot of reasons for this. First Aerith says she doesn't know which kind of like this is. Which is not any concrete answer it just more uncertainty than we started with. But second it's they made two versions of this scene he doesn't say nakama in both. This matters. This means there's still that room for fantasy and interpretation at play. And I am just calling a spade a spade here: I don't think they'll really clarify anything for CA beyond this point. If they do great. I am not currently seeing them do that.

What I think is definitely likely is they'll lean into ZA more and maybe resolve that and clarify Aerith's feelings for Zack and hope that fans will be swayed to root for them. But I'm a person that waits till the end to judge. I don't count my eggs before they hatch. So that's just my best guess. As I said, they could also just... not.

I also think they will go in depth with CT and make the LS scene extra clear in terms of feelings. I think this the most likely move regardless of what they do with CA or ZA.

To be completely clear I don't think CA is fully "resolved".
The difference is adding that Aerith doesn't know what she feels in both versions of the scene. Which is still not concrete confirmation. But it adds uncertainty and I think they hoped this is enough because "hey she doesn't fully know what her feelings are" means they don't need to elaborate further on not just Cloud's but now also her feelings, problem solved. While keeping two versions means people can still get a nice interaction if they went for her date and not feel friendzoned, problem solved. (I still honestly think doing it this way is a huge cop out but yeah).

So I think they'll just leave it at that and resolve CT instead. And hopefully do something in depth with ZA. The pieces are definitely there I agree. But I will wait and see.

And I will say I do understand what Skilagon means but I'm basically saying I'm just not sure I completely agree with people who will stick with a franchise hear exactly what the devs say they're going to do and then feel "betrayed" because it doesn't go their way and then blame the creators. I understand the frustration, I do, but it's 2025 now. We're in it for the long haul and we've had plenty of time to hear the devs thoughts on their own creation. There's no room for outraged surprise at this late stage.
And instead of having all these lofty expectations of what we wish to happen I think it's time to just pay attention to what the creators are showing us and saying. Otherwise it's going to definitely lead to disappointment and I won't blame the devs for that.

 

[Eerie]

I'm gonna have to disagree a bit there xD

While I agree it would be the smart choice to resolve ZA and give them something concrete there's also the possibility they'll leave that open too.

They said that the games are leading into ACC and ACC ends up with ZA, it's very clear. So to me they have to resolve that. But if you look at Marlene's scene, she says Aerith is in love with Cloud now. And Zack doesn't need Aerith's feelings towards himself to be cleared, but Aerith's feelings towards Cloud. This is what he needs as an answer. This is why I believe that they are going to clarify Aerith's feelings towards Cloud - that and her wondering about "like" in the church also opens for that.

First Aerith says she doesn't know which kind of like this is. Which is not a concrete answer. But second it's they made two versions of this scene he doesn't say nakama in both. This matters.

I think you are seeing it wrong; this is a callback to the two versions of the HW scene in the OG, IMHO, but in the other way. Let me be explain: both scenes of the HW cannot contradict each other, which means the high version colours the low version: they both have more or less romantic undertones. The church scene is the same: they cannot contradict each other, which means that the low affection does colour the high version: in both, Cloud isn't interested that way in Aerith. And to prove the point, in both version she says "sorry" before hugging him because she is sorry to overstep his boundaries. You cannot escape the fact that Aerith knows she's overstepping there, and that she's doing something she shouldn't, because Cloud does not see her that way.

The two versions of the church actually complete a whole sentence from Cloud: "of course I want to spend time with you because you are my nakama", it's him stressing that yes she is important to him, but it's not because he's in love with her. It's because he enjoys spending time with her as a friend.

I also think they will go in depth with CT and make the LS scene extra clear in terms of feelings. I think this the most likely move regardless of what they do with CA or ZA.

I agree that CT will get EXTRA clear, and no mention of Aerith will be needed: but unlike ZA, Tifa did not have someone tell her that Cloud loved Aerith now. So she doesn't have that burden - and the LSS was already extra clear in the OG, IMHO, and since it was all written in Rebirth, you know it's going to get expanded in an extra way.

 

[Skilganon]

Nomura did point out that many FFVII fans have a distorted perception of the game, and I think settling down this distorted perception is one of the devs' goals, especially Nojima and Nomura (IIRC Nomura said that Nojima only agreed to come back if he could write how he wanted). This distortion does not concern only shipping, but a large part of FFVII and its lore, IMHO.

I've been looking for these interviews because I find this whole sentiment fascinating. The devs have to understand that these distortions are their own fault to a certain degree. Fundamentally, you shouldn't need dev statements or lines from an Ultimania to understand character relationships within a game's story. But the whole reason people agonize over these things is because the material itself is so wishy-washy on these subjects.

What I'm most looking forward to in part 3 are the CA scenes, because I find it impossible to predict how this relationship is going to be handled. If there is a "friendzoning" moment, how will the devs deal with the fallout from fans? If they leave it undecided, or hint that it was a budding romance tragically cut short, how do we then see CT and ZA?

If Cloud has an "It's always been you" moment with Tifa, then people will begin to back-rationalize. It turns out Cloud actually wasn't clueless to Aerith's advances, he was just acting evasive so as not to be rude. To me this is clear in Cloud's body language, but not many people want to analyze it that closely.

Calling Aerith a red herring love interest doesn't seem fair to the character or her fans. How do the devs thread the needle, after 30 years, to make CT clear while not also making Aerith look desperate in retrospect?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I'm gonna have to disagree a bit there xD


They said that the games are leading into ACC and ACC ends up with ZA, it's very clear. So to me they have to resolve that. But if you look at Marlene's scene, she says Aerith is in love with Cloud now. And Zack doesn't need Aerith's feelings towards himself to be cleared, but Aerith's feelings towards Cloud. This is what he needs as an answer. This is why I believe that they are going to clarify Aerith's feelings towards Cloud - that and her wondering about "like" in the church also opens for that.


I think you are seeing it wrong; this is a callback to the two versions of the HW scene in the OG, IMHO, but in the other way. Let me be explain: both scenes of the HW cannot contradict each other, which means the high version colours the low version: they both have more or less romantic undertones. The church scene is the same: they cannot contradict each other, which means that the low affection does colour the high version: in both, Cloud isn't interested that way in Aerith. And to prove the point, in both version she says "sorry" before hugging him because she is sorry to overstep his boundaries. You cannot escape the fact that Aerith knows she's overstepping there, and that she's doing something she shouldn't, because Cloud does not see her that way.

The two scenes don't contradict. I don't think they're opposites.
In one he says of course in another he says yes because they're friends. My point is still set up this way so if you get Aerith's date you don't get him saying they're friends while in one he just says of course. And from the beginning I have been wondering about that. Because when you think about it, they really did not need to do it that way. The difference is so small that two scenes really were not needed.

The fact they did does give me the impression they wanted to leave enough room for Aerith fans to imagine what it they meet again and interpret it as they will in at least one version of the scene. Fans of CA aren't going to see it as her stepping on his boundaries in that case even if that is what she thinks she is doing.

Also here's my thoughts on that.

She's not making any big enough confessions in any version of the scene either for it to be a big enough deal that she hugs him goodbye. I don't count "I don't know what I feel" as a giant deal anyway. She's also going to die it makes sense to hug him either way. So she may see it as a boundary cross but is it really? Especially if she doesn't know what she feels is platonic or romantic implied by the line liking or liking.

Also this is what I'm talking about with do they actually need to elaborate?:
If you hug your friend and you don't actually see them romantically you're not crossing a boundary. So if she thinks she is crossing a boundary then wouldn't that just mean she does have romantic feelings for him?

And if she has feelings for him then did we really need to do all this? Wouldn't that just be the answer?
In that case do we really need to elaborate on it?

And if she Doesn't have feelings for him then isn't it weird of her to think she's crossing any boundaries because she doesn't see him that way? And if she doesn't see him that way again do we really need to elaborate? Because what exactly are we elaborating on?

The only option I see here where they would need to elaborate is if she's just so confused she can't figure it out either way or she's super convinced she loves Cloud but will have some realization later.

But something about that bothers me. Because again they really didn't need to do it this way. It was enough set up already by having Marlene say she likes Cloud to Zack and they can resolve that when they meet.

They however now made it so she is wondering about her feelings. Yes it makes sense to clarify these feelings. It also makes sense if she's confused then has her realization. I'm not saying that 100% won't happen.

But I'll argue it's also the perfect excuse to just sidestep the question entirely without offending anyone. Because I agree with Skilagon that if the reveal is Aerith thought she liked Cloud but April Fools! That is very likely going to piss a lot of people off, maybe more even than Cloud not returning her feelings. And if they don't want to piss people off that's an out they can take.

Once they call her feelings into question it becomes less important to actually clarify them. They really could just focus on ZA without needing to bring it up again. If we see her reunite with Zack we can just assume okay so she loves Zack then without bringing up Cloud. "She wasn't sure about Cloud anyway". Problem solved.

I know I can be wrong there. It could also be set up for a true clarification. But what I said is another possibility that I can't help but think of. Because just really didn't have to be set up the way it was.

Also let's say oh they did it this way because she doesn't actually like Cloud that way but she thinks she does but she will figure out she only loves Zack and we're going to clarify that. That's a lot of extra steps. Okay so now we have the issue of how and when is she going to realize that? And how much run time is this realization going to cover?

Is she going to just see Zack in one scene and just know? Because that's a lot of set up for one moment and something that just didn't need to be that complicated in the first place. And is it worth it to piss people off if you can't convince them the alternative is better? That has to be a hell of an amazing scene.
Or is she going to have some drawn out session like the dream date but with Zack? Which would make more sense but that also takes time. Where and how are they going to fit that in? Etc.

I'm not saying ZA won't happen because I think it will. But "how deep is it going to go?" Is basically what I'm saying. The problem with ACC was they got like no screen time and here in Pt3 we're going to have a lotttt to cover already just by default without even touching on this ZA stuff. So I'm saying we do need to prepare for the possibility that we may get a truncated version of all this. Or get some of this but not all.

Also I am wondering because now they have to convince the entire group they just pissed off that this is the best for Aerith and squeeze in that happy ending for everyone too. There's just a lot they're going to need to do in not that much time honestly.

Which is why while it seems controversial I'm going to keep my expectations low enough to be safe. Because the more I look at it the more it looks like we're going to get a cliff notes version of Advent Children HD somewhere plus extended ending.

Though these are just my thoughts currently. It will be interesting to come back at the end of pt 3 and see how my view evolves.

 

[Skilganon]

Cait Sith's wedding fortune was remade in EC, and the changes are... interesting.

 

[Eerie]

I was going to answer you both with long quotes, but @LunarTarotGirl and @Skilganon, to avoid this, here is what I think.

The church scene is meant to show that Cloud and Aerith have a friendship bond - the dream date does reinforce that their bond is not romantic, with everything that goes wrong, Aerith pleading for Cloud to gift her something, him refusing to pin the flower pin on her jacket, etc. It's not only about Aerith who knows she's going to die, it's a meta commentary about their relationship, how it looks romantic but what she seeks in him is Zack (that we keep seeing in her date for a good reason).

Marlene telling Zack that Aerith loved Cloud now can only mean that Zack is going to need her answer about Cloud. Specifically about Cloud. And I think one of the things that the devs are about to unveil in p3 is what kind of feelings Aerith has for Cloud. Because if "her first love Zack is always by her side", then I guarantee you that it's not love. If she indeed loved Cloud, Zack would bow out. Right now he is heartbroken, he understood that he was dead, but still wanted to protect Aerith. But he's not a willing party to CA: he said he hates Cloud a little bit for a reason. And IMHO, it's not far-fetched to think that Aerith had a severe case of transference. Because that's what she says in the GS, that she saw Zack in Cloud. Think about the ZA reunion, prior to Marlene telling Zack Aerith loved Cloud, yes, the question of Cloud wouldn't need to be touched: just have them hug and kiss and voilà! But do you think that with his feelings it's fair to Zack (haha) that this kind of scene happens before Aerith can dissipate this?

Last, when people say that Cloud fell for Aerith, it's very insulting to Tifa's character. There is no escape there: the devs created her to remain by the hero's side until the end. They created her for Cloud, to be his love interest. He's been crushing on her then that developped into love since he was a kid. He made his feelings and memories all about her. So when people say "oh he loves both" what they really mean is that this character created to be specifically his love interest, to such a point that her arc is entwined with his and a lot of people deny that she has an arc at all (!!), you're saying that she has to share her lover with the girl who died and maybe something more would have happened there. And yet there's only one girl Cloud kisses, while the other is still alive - I think this should be a huge clue as to where this is going.

What "both girls" people are saying that Tifa's character amounts to nothing because her whole raison d'être (and I don't mean in game: I mean, being created by the devs specifically for this) amounts to nothing because the girl he's met for barely 3 weeks is his first choice. Let me tell you, if Cloud had feelings for Aerith, then Tifa didn't need to exist, it's as simple as that. Aerith already has a lover, an importance in the overall plot that Tifa hasn't, but people are ready to give Aerith what is Tifa's: the Lifestream scene (not you specifically, but you know who's been making demands for eons), a second lover... to simply put it, Aerith cannot have it all. Yes she died, which is why people don't see the problem with giving her everything, but Tifa exists for a reason, and that reason is Cloud. Aerith's raison d'être is different, it's to save the planet. You can say it happens in real life, but this is a story crafted, real life has no bearing on it. If Aerith was meant to be loved by Cloud, the story would be different, and she'd be able to help him in the Lifestream - but she cannot.

To me it boils down to this, and Nojima is acutely aware of the fandom - which is why he does the things the way he does. He and Nomura are here to stop the distortions in players' perceptions, to show the truth about this story. Yes, CA has always been about "the illusion", which is why they're pretty and look good, which is also why Aerith doesn't meet the real Cloud while she is alive - which is why it's Tifa who saves him and confronts him to the truth, the reality. But it's also ok to say that they are just a fanon pair, and I think the fans actually deserve that - not only CAs, so they can either drop it or go fully into fanon, but also the rest of the fandom. We, as general fans, really need to move on from that topic, it begs to be closed because the devs have made mistakes in both the OG and AC.

Think about it, but to this day, talking about the most important relationship in game is prohibited in most spaces. You cannot talk about CT in reddit, or in forums - or it's actually really hard to. And I'm not talking about shipping posts, but anything that is related to them is just forbidden talk mostly on the net outside of shipping spaces. That's how bad it is. And I really do think it's unfair. So "wah but CAs will be sad?" yeah I'm sorry but I only care about my CA friends, the rest, not so much.

Either way, Tifa and Zack cannot be "second best" because such is not their nature. They're both the first and only choice of Cloud and Aerith, respectively.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Eerie

@Skilganon

I'll respond to both too. You both made points. Here's my thoughts.

Specifically my thoughts as an Aerith fan.

It's not that I think Tifa or Zack should be second choice or anything. Though I'm personally somebody who doesn't see relationships that way (if a person loves two people or whatever I don't see that as a sin.) I do understand from the fictional stance what you mean.
However, I'm saying the pattern the devs have shown so far has shown me two things: Aerith in OG, in COLW in the compilation has never said anything other than she loves Cloud in the present.

Her relationship with Zack was shown off to the side in Crisis Core and Nojima forgot his entire existence in COWL. If the devs want to NOW show that everything Aerith has been saying is not true we have to admit that will need to be convincing. Because similar to Tifa's case being diminished if her entire arc with Cloud is subverted (though I also don't think it's ever a good idea to tie women characters as solely the love interest to the point their reason to exist is affected honestly) what would be the whole point of showcasing Aerith as loving Cloud in so much material and saying so if that's not true? There has to be some sort of convincing reason to show fans that their time wasn't just wasted.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I always say fans should go with what the creators decide and I still believe that. If CA isn't romantic we should 100% accept it. But as I pointed out with the church scene having two versions the issue is the illusion of romance with Cloud and Aerith has never actually ended. It continues to this day. I a long time ago figured out where the endgame will go. But I will say that's not because it doesn't look romantic. And that's the problem. It looks romantic and even with this new scene you have a scene that STILL looks romantic. So you're (you as in the devs) telling us CA fans one thing Cloud doesn't see Aerith that way and she is unsure of her feelings. But you're still showing us another. Especially by having scenes based on affection. How it looks is completely different from what you're telling us to believe.
As I said that matters.

And up to this point they haven't shown Zack as much, had Aerith talking about how she wants to meet Cloud and that things are different now. So what what exactly are Aerith fans supposed to think? Are they supposed to not believe their own favorite character?

If this was reversed and it was Tifa who thought she loved Cloud but it wasn't true, I'm sure Tifa fans would believe Tifa about her own feelings. And that makes sense.

Fans aren't trying to be antagonistic by default. We all go with what we think the story is showing us.
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And that's the problem. The devs have not to this point given us any convincing reason to not see CA as romantic. Even if you tell us Cloud loves her as a friend the actual presentation on the screen still sells us a different story. Because it does looks romantic. And on top of it Aerith herself says she likes Cloud. And we have Zack get told this too. This is exactly why so many CAs will insist this can't be a red herring. I don't blame them. Because when did the devs end the illusion and show that it really is a red herring? They actually haven't yet. Not fully.
The church scene came close then they gave us a version where the Aerith fan who obviously picked Aerith for their date would not see the scene where Cloud calls her a friend.

So that's why I said it feels like a cop out. Because one version of the church scene continues that illusion while telling us Aerith doesn't know what kind of like she feels. At the same time.

On top of that they're also selling us hope she'll live.

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@Skilganon If they're selling these illusions I will not blame anyone if they get upset when they find out it's an illusion. I don't think it is something surprising if people are listening to the devs but I don't blame them for naturally being upset. But I just also don't think the devs are being intentionally malicious by doing their story this way and I'm open to seeing the end result before I judge. A story not going our way doesn't automatically mean bad writing. At least not until it's over.

I understand if it's an illusion and they actually subvert it. I can accept that. I have been ready to accept that since a decade ago. But they have not actually shown us that part where Aerith says "Oh it really is that I love Zack" yet. So we are still in this illusion. And that's not fair either honestly. So I see where you're coming from. But at this point it's gone on so long too that as I said I'm not convinced if they will address it until they do.
I hope they do is all I can say to avoid disappointment.
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I think this is leading up to some resolution. But I keep repeating it didn't have to be this way. Because it really didn't. Clarifying what was already there was enough.
Honestly at this point I would have been fine if Cloud just rejects her and we not do all this. Because again it doesn't need to be so complicated and it's not actually helping clarify things but make them more convoluted.

If Aerith clarifies her feelings for Cloud for Zack's sake I really hope they sell it in way that is satisfying and that actually serves her arc in a positive way. I know CTs see ZA as an obvious positive for Aerith. Zack is a great character. But so far I honestly don't think "because Zack is her love interest" is a good enough reason to complicate things. She could have also simply just have stayed single while coming to terms with his death herself.

They're bringing him back to settle this so I do hope it's actually settled.

However...
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The second thing: Disclaimer: I'm not anti ZA. I would accept a ZA reunion etc. Whoever Aerith chooses and wants is what I want because first and foremost I'm a fan of her not her relationship.

HOWEVER:
So now the devs in pt 3 have to break the illusion but not just that they have to convince us that it was an illusion all along but that also that's not an insult to our time and intelligence for the last 27 years. They're trying to do this by introducing Zack. And I agree it would not be anything bad if Aerith and Zack end up together.

But the problem is up until this point they actually haven't had us see Zack as the person Aerith loves besides Crisis Core. Which is the past. They really need to show us this in the present. This means Zack needed WAY more screen time and development to convince the audience that this reunion is something we want for Aerith and that Aerith wants for herself. I would be totally fine with Zerith. I'm sure many CAs would too if it was actually fleshed out. The problem is it's not. And another main issue is Nojima in order to tie Aerith to Zack made her ribbon, selling flowers etc all about him while not actually selling us on why they're so great together. We basically don't see them on screen together that long. And the stuff we see looks mostly like a copy of CA.

Then for the rest of the time Aerith is all about Cloud. So now in Rebirth was the best time to show us what is so good about Aerith and Zack. And what did they do? They doubled down on "Aerith loves Cloud" at least that's how it looks by having Marlene tell him that. And once again have Zack basically in the background with an unconscious Aerith this time. We don't see them interact.
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So I do have to ask:
1. How exactly are CAs supposed to feel and take this?
2. And how exactly are the devs planning to convince a good portion of their audience that Zack is the one for Aerith and that she truly loves him and not Cloud. And they're a perfect couple when they have not shown this to us?

That's why I'm saying with part 3 that's a lot they need to do to make whatever happens with Aerith convincing. This is what I hope. And I argue they do owe it to the CA fans to show us this is definitely leading up to something worthwhile. Because for 27 years they sold this illusion but never actually ended it. Now if we're supposed to accept, okay so it wasn't like we thought then give us a reason to accept.
I think the devs aren't just going to be disrespectful and say tough luck. I do trust them to genuinely want to do right by all their fans.
But they're also going to have to give something to ZA fans as well and make ZA actually convincing too.

And do I honestly think they can pull that off? I don't know. I hope so.
But it's looking like there's a lot of stuff they're going to need to do in Pt3 that they could have done in pt 2 but chose not to.

Because after so long I don't think one or two ZA scenes is going to cut it honestly. The smart thing instead of alienating half their fan base would be to show skeptical fans that ZA was intended for good reason not just to give Aerith a love interest. Because in that case a lot of people would prefer Aerith alone. But to showcase that we really should be invested in this relationship they're telling us they intended all along. They're also not just going to have to address her feelings but justify why they did it this way. What the point of Aerith's arc was etc.

And I do think they owe us that. The same way they'd owe Tifa her arc with Cloud Aerith fans deserve not to have their time wasted and not to have an illusion that won't end (or a tease that she'll live) but a real answer and some sort of concrete ending for her that makes sense. But how well are they going to handle that? "How deep it is going to go?" That is my question. And until I actually see the end of Pt3 I can't really say anything else.
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CT is already pretty much clear from Remake and will only get clearer.
But ZA and CA are still stuck in this limbo and have been for 27 years where we were never actually given any concrete answers. We were never shown how Aerith feels about Zack after Crisis Core. And we were told she loves Cloud.

If they're going to subvert that I'm fine with it. I don't think an illusion should continue but I do agree with Skilagon in they have a lot lot they need to do to make it convincing enough to not alienate the same people they've sold an illusion to all this time.

Edit: Divided up my thoughts so it's more coherent.

 

[null]

Cait Sith's wedding fortune was remade in EC, and the changes are... interesting.

Which changes? The video I saw looked identical to the original.

 

[Son Goku]

Wow, this Forum still exists. (Long hiatus)
And the LTD is still going on.

Feels Nostalgic

 

[Skilganon]

Which changes? The video I saw looked identical to the original.

There's no "poor Tifa", but she's still standing off to the side looking frustrated. Also, Cloud and Aerith are not standing side-by-side like the OG. Cait Sith appears to be talking mainly to Aerith.

you're saying that she has to share her lover with the girl who died and maybe something more would have happened there.

The devs haven't done nearly enough to dissuade people of this. It's believed by a large number of people who are shipping-neutral. And like @LunarTarotGirl said, if the dream date has the intention you claim, then it largely back fired. I've said previously that the whole dream date section should have simply been cut from the game. The events of Advent Children don't really help this case either.

Again, I don't really have issues with Cloud actually being in a love triangle, I just don't want Tifa to look like a doormat.